I don't find belief to be volitional and I don't understand why the majority does

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I have no idea what I am missing, whether it be intellectual, emotional, spiritual etc. I genuinely cannot come to terms with the idea that belief / faith is volitional, namely something that we can choose to have or not have. It just doesn't seem to be that way to me. I don't know how to muster up faith in anything without evidence that I find satisfying in regards to the thing I'm supposed to have faith in.

I simply cannot understand how other people are (or claim to be) able to. I also cannot understand why the statement that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" doesn't apply to me. God knows that I've spend years praying, reading Scripture, watching and listening to Christian content, yet here I am, more misotheistic than ever, because I apply the Word to my life and it simply doesn't produce the results that The Bible says it should produce.

Those who claim that faith is volitional, please answer me: can you choose to suddenly believe in any other religion? Why not? Because you have not found sufficient evidence to support the claims of those religions? Or because you were raised a Christian and Christianity states that all other religions are wrong?

Why would God demand faith as the only criteria for salvation from us while being fully aware that we are flawed beings who live in a world in which the father of lies roams around day and night? It seem absurd. We could be fooled into believing anything. Why would Jesus hold the people's sins against them ("this wicked and perverted generation will not be given any signs") and refuse to offer the Pharisees good reason to convince them of His claims? Why would The Prince of Peace come to bring a sword and division among people despite being omnipotent and omnibenevolent and, thus, able to create peace on earth without testing anyone's loyalty?

Damning people to eternal torture because of lacking faith in the current context of our current existence in a fallen world filled with deceit is absolutely unfair. If a criteria were to be chosen for deciding salvation, it should be reason. We should be provided with sufficient proof of the reality of Gospel and those who, in spite of said proof, rejected it or chose to ignore it, should be judged.

Blessed are those who believe? Why? Who not those who reason? Why not those who obey after having received satisfying proof?

 

[tango]

What exactly is it that you're struggling to believe, and what sort of evidence would you expect to see to convince you that it were true?

 

[rstrats]

I have no idea what I am missing, whether it be intellectual, emotional, spiritual etc. I genuinely cannot come to terms with the idea that belief / faith is volitional, namely something that we can choose to have or not have.

I know that is the case with me. Nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability complied with the request.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability complied with the request.

I have actually come across people who claimed that they could indeed choose their beliefs and were adamant about the fact that yes, they could choose to believe in another religion despite knowing that it was not true. I don't know what to make of those claims.

 

[psalms 91]

I think the word is faith and God has shown me many times that faith is rewarded. The one that really comes to mind is oncI was suppposed to go to a ten day christian gathering and had to move in two weeks. I was very conflicted about it all and as I prayed under the stars that night I clearly felt I was told to go. I went with no idea how I would manage the move at the same time I was there. I came home and all my stuff was moved into an apartment! This was not something I had planned or knew about but people in my church that knew the situation had taken care of it. That isd faith in action my friend

 

[rstrats]

What exactly is it that you're struggling to believe, and what sort of evidence would you expect to see to convince you that it were true?

If beliefs can simply be engendered by consciously choosing to have them, then evidence should not be necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would one know when they had it? What would be the indicator that would allow someone to say - "At the moment I don't believe that 'X' exists, but I've just received evidence for its existence, and while I still don't believe that it exists, I'm going to believe that it does, and - poof - I now believe that 'X' exists?

 

[Albion]

If beliefs can simply be engendered by consciously choosing to have them, then evidence should not be necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would one know when they had it? What would be the indicator that would allow someone to say - "At the moment I don't believe that 'X' exists, but I've just received evidence for its existence, and while I still don't believe that it exists, I'm going to believe that it does, and - poof - I now believe that 'X' exists?

If we believe in something that doesn't exist (for instance gnomes or a flat Earth), then that belief is unimportant.

But if you were to believe in the Bible record and in Jesus Christ, along with his revelations and promises, we'd call that "Faith" because the story involves facts that cannot be either proven or disproved by the usual tests. In addition, having Faith in these facts and promises is the mechanism by which they are appropriated by you, so it's not simply a matter of whether or not you know something.

 

[Josiah]

. I genuinely cannot come to terms with the idea that belief / faith is volitional, namely something that we can choose to have or not have.

It's not. It is the gift of God. The Holy Spirit does it.



.

 

[rstrats]

If we believe in something that doesn't exist (for instance gnomes or a flat Earth), then that belief is unimportant.

Uh, ok - but what does that have to do with my comment that you quoted?

 

[tango]

If beliefs can simply be engendered by consciously choosing to have them, then evidence should not be necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would one know when they had it? What would be the indicator that would allow someone to say - "At the moment I don't believe that 'X' exists, but I've just received evidence for its existence, and while I still don't believe that it exists, I'm going to believe that it does, and - poof - I now believe that 'X' exists?

I think there are a range of things that could be called "beliefs" and the breadth of the range potentially muddies the waters.

For example, I don't believe there is a unicorn living in the hedge at the bottom of my yard. I'm not even going to try to believe there is a unicorn there. If I were to go and take a close look at the hedge I expect to find - wait for it - a distinct lack of unicorns. Someone might try and pull some kind of derivative of Russell's Teapot and claim there really is a unicorn but it's hiding, or it's so small I can't see it, or whatever else, but I'm not buying i.

On the other hand every year my wife sees precisely zero evidence that I have bought her anything of any description for her birthday. It's something of a game between us, where I'm trying to find her something, buy it, sneak it into the house and wrap it, all without letting on that it's even there. Then on the morning of her birthday the gift mysteriously appears. She sees precisely no evidence that a gift exists but she chooses to believe that I have bought her something even if she can't see evidence for anything.

In this instance she may not have any evidence to believe in the existence of a specific object but can choose to trust that I have got her something. That's based on my track record of always pulling out a surprise for her.

Of course the obvious objection to this is that it requires a track record, but in many ways it doesn't necessarily require a track record. We can choose to trust in another person to do something even if they don't have a track record of doing it, although it's not inherently unreasonable to trust them in smaller things before putting ourselves in a place where we potentially risk a great personal loss if they don't come through.

To go back to the unicorn in the hedge, and the specifics of your post about evidence. If I were to take a look out of the window towards the back of my yard and see something that looked like a horse with a horn on it, I'd be surprised. I'd be inclined to go and take a closer look and, if it turned out to actually be a unicorn living in the hedge it would naturally prove that my previous belief (i.e. that no such unicorn exists) was wrong. At that point, short of finding some other explanation for what I had just experienced, I would have little option but to change my belief to reflect the new reality.

 

[rstrats]

It's not. It is the gift of God. The Holy Spirit does it.



.

So you're saying that if someone believes for instance that aliens (the ET kind) actually exist, that the supreme being placed the belief in the person's mind?

 

[rstrats]

To go back to the unicorn in the hedge, and the specifics of your post about evidence. If I were to take a look out of the window towards the back of my yard and see something that looked like a horse with a horn on it, I'd be surprised. I'd be inclined to go and take a closer look and, if it turned out to actually be a unicorn living in the hedge it would naturally prove that my previous belief (i.e. that no such unicorn exists) was wrong. At that point, short of finding some other explanation for what I had just experienced, I would have little option but to change my belief to reflect the new reality.

But at the moment when you realized that you were wrong, what would the state of your mind be with regard to having a belief in unicorns?

 

[Albion]

So you're saying that if someone believes for instance that aliens (the ET kind) actually exist, that the supreme being placed the belief in the person's mind?

In life, there are all sorts of erroneous beliefs, and no one here is saying that the Holy Spirit placed them into anybody's mind.

 

[rstrats]

In life, there are all sorts of erroneous beliefs, and no one here is saying that the Holy Spirit placed them into anybody's mind.

So, to what do you think Josiah was referring when he wrote - - "The Holy Spirit does it" with regard to the obtaining of beliefs?

 

[tango]

But at the moment when you realized that you were wrong, what would the state of your mind be with regard to having a belief in unicorns?

That would depend on the magnitude of the clash between existing beliefs and evidence that contradicted them.

In the example of the unicorn it would probably be quite bewildering, since I have held the belief in the non-existence of unicorns for many decades. It would be quite a shock to see evidence that they are real.

On the other hand, many years ago a guy I knew told me how old he was and I didn't believe him. So he showed me his driving license that confirmed his age was exactly what he had said. At that point I was surprised - I still found it hard to believe but it wasn't like I had any personal investment in the belief.

 

[Albion]

So, to what do you think Josiah was referring when he wrote - - "The Holy Spirit does it" with regard to the obtaining of beliefs?

Well, it was obvious to me that he was in the process of explaining Christian Faith to you. That did seem to be the objective of your inquiry, not just whether unicorns are credible, etc.

 

[rstrats]

Well, it was obvious to me that he was in the process of explaining Christian Faith to you. That did seem to be the objective of your inquiry, not just whether unicorns are credible, etc.

It wasn't. At least not if by "Christian Faith" you meant explaining what it is.

Josiah wrote -It's not. It is the gift of God. The Holy Spirit does it.

I assumed by "it" that he was referring to belief/faith, and that it is a gift which is given and not something that a person engenders themselves, or as the OP puts it - volitionally chooses to have or not have.

 

[Albion]

It wasn't. At least not if by "Christian Faith" you meant explaining what it is.

Josiah wrote -It's not. It is the gift of God. The Holy Spirit does it.

I assumed by "it" that he was referring to belief/faith, and that it is a gift which is given and not something that a person engenders themselves, or as the OP puts it - volitionally chooses to have or not have.

I'm not positive that I know what you are driving at but, yes, Josiah was saying that Faith in the Biblical sense of the word comes by the Holy Spirit imparting it rather than the individual having chosen it on his own. Among Christians, there's nothing unusual about that answer.

 

[Messy]

Why would Jesus hold the people's sins against them ("this wicked and perverted generation will not be given any signs") and refuse to offer the Pharisees good reason to convince them of His claims?

Blessed are those who believe? Why? Who not those who reason? Why not those who obey after having received satisfying proof?

The pharisees saw Him proving He was the Messiah. They saw the signs and wonders and proof in abundance, but they didn't want Him, because they were wicked and they sinned against the Spirit. A preacher once said: they did have faith that He was gonna do a miracle. They were waiting for him to heal that man's arm, so they could kill Him. He knew what was in their heart. The other guy with the sick son, He gave him proof and the whole family got saved. He healed his son. It's not a choice to believe without proof. I used to not believe He existed and I just tested it and asked for proof. But it is a choice to reject Him when you get proof and it is a choice to search for Him, but also to pray for ppl, so they can get saved, even when they're now blinded.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The pharisees saw Him proving He was the Messiah.

Except they didn't. According to what they understood from their Scriptures, the Messiah was supposed to accomplish certain things that Jesus did not, among which to bring knowledge of God to everyone on Earth, to bring back the Jews from exile and to rebuild the kingdom.

They saw the signs and wonders and proof in abundance, but they didn't want Him, because they were wicked and they sinned against the Spirit.

How did you come to that conclusion? Yes, they did see signs and wonders, but they also had Scripture that said the following:

"1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 13)

A preacher once said: they did have faith that He was gonna do a miracle. They were waiting for him to heal that man's arm, so they could kill Him. He knew what was in their heart. The other guy with the sick son, He gave him proof and the whole family got saved. He healed his son.

The thing is that they were aware that people who worked with demons could also do miracles. Pharaoh's magicians did some sort of magical things, there were all sort of healers from various nations. In light of the clear prophecies about what the Messiah would do, Jesus simply going around doing miracles was not adequate proof for them.

The fact that Jesus always spoke in parables instead of being clear and concise like Moses was might have also contributed to their unbelief.