Are you supposed to forgive "some" only?

[tango]

He did. Can you find a place where he said he loved them? The wicked help shape Christ in us. Knowing God is the cause of their foul actions, we understand that it works for our good. But they suffer his wrath for doing it. It helps in knowing that. I've seen it too many times in these situations.

This kind of argument is just epic.

God causes people to do evil things, refuses to give them any choice to not do evil things, then punishes them for all eternity for doing evil things.

What a loving god you describe. I'd love to see what hate looks like in your world.

 

[1689Dave]

This kind of argument is just epic.

God causes people to do evil things, refuses to give them any choice to not do evil things, then punishes them for all eternity for doing evil things.

What a loving god you describe. I'd love to see what hate looks like in your world.

People do exactly what they want to do. But it is always evil. God would not be righteous if he didn't punish them.

 

[Lamb]

People do exactly what they want to do. But it is always evil. God would not be righteous if he didn't punish them.

But you said we're to be Christlike...are we to punish people too as well as hate?

 

[1689Dave]

But you said we're to be Christlike...are we to punish people too as well as hate?

Never use violence to defend yourself. It's better to uphold Christ's words and be killed rather than to use violence to defend yourself.

 

[tango]

Never use violence to defend yourself. It's better to uphold Christ's words and be killed rather than to use violence to defend yourself.

But what difference does it make if we use violence against someone we're allowed to hate?

If we're being like Christ we need to hate the evildoers. That's most of the nasty people out there. If we are supposed to hate them, as Christ apparently does, surely the best way to show that hate is to be as nasty as possible to them?

Maybe we should be using violence against them just for the sake of it even if they aren't threatening us, that seems like a good way to show our hatred for them.

 

[1689Dave]

But what difference does it make if we use violence against someone we're allowed to hate?

If we're being like Christ we need to hate the evildoers. That's most of the nasty people out there. If we are supposed to hate them, as Christ apparently does, surely the best way to show that hate is to be as nasty as possible to them?

Maybe we should be using violence against them just for the sake of it even if they aren't threatening us, that seems like a good way to show our hatred for them.

If you have the Holy Spirit. You have a heart of love that includes enemies. You would rather die than harm them following Christ's example. Most do not have the Holy Spirit and violence is a way of life for them.

 

[tango]

If you have the Holy Spirit. You have a heart of love that includes enemies. You would rather die than harm them following Christ's example. Most do not have the Holy Spirit and violence is a way of life for them.

Wait, what? I thought you said God hates these people. Why in the world would I want to love those you're busy telling me God hates? If I have the Holy Spirit inside me I will do what God does, so I'd have to hate them as well.

Why would I want to die? You've said many times Jesus didn't die for the evil people so why would I want to die rather than harm them?

Come on Dave, it's gotta be one or the other here. You can't play both sides of the same argument as if it were anything consistent. Does God love people or not? If he hates people then the only way I can be more like Christ is if I also hate them. And if I hate them why would I want to do anything good for them? After all, what God has in store for them is far worse than anything I can do to them. Might as well get them used to being treated really badly, if they've got an eternity of it to look forward to.

 

[1689Dave]

Wait, what? I thought you said God hates these people. Why in the world would I want to love those you're busy telling me God hates? If I have the Holy Spirit inside me I will do what God does, so I'd have to hate them as well.

Why would I want to die? You've said many times Jesus didn't die for the evil people so why would I want to die rather than harm them?

Come on Dave, it's gotta be one or the other here. You can't play both sides of the same argument as if it were anything consistent. Does God love people or not? If he hates people then the only way I can be more like Christ is if I also hate them. And if I hate them why would I want to do anything good for them? After all, what God has in store for them is far worse than anything I can do to them. Might as well get them used to being treated really badly, if they've got an eternity of it to look forward to.

Have you ever been persecuted for following Christ? Only then will you understand what I'm saying. Wicked people test our Christ likeness.

 

[tango]

Have you ever been persecuted for following Christ? Only then will you understand what I'm saying. Wicked people test our Christ likeness.

That's got nothing to do with it.

If God hates these people, and Christ is God, then in order to be like Christ I must also hate them. If the Holy Spirit is God then having the Holy Spirit inside me will make it easier for me to hate them as Christ hates them.

If anything wicked people would make it easier to be Christ-like as they are so much easier to hate. I guess we can tell the true believers based on them hating people more vehemently than anyone else?

 

[1689Dave]

That's got nothing to do with it.

If God hates these people, and Christ is God, then in order to be like Christ I must also hate them. If the Holy Spirit is God then having the Holy Spirit inside me will make it easier for me to hate them as Christ hates them.

If anything wicked people would make it easier to be Christ-like as they are so much easier to hate. I guess we can tell the true believers based on them hating people more vehemently than anyone else?

It has everything to do with understanding scripture. Unless you walk the walk, you will never understand.

 

[Jason76]

For the limited atonement believers, do you only forgive some people? How do you know who you're supposed to forgive since only God knows the heart of men? How do you see this verse:

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

This is a tough cookie to bite. Well, I have forgiven people in my life cause the Bible told me to forgive, not because I needed something from them. It was very tough to forgive these certain people and maybe they think I did it cause I was wanting something valuable from them.

Well, if you don't forgive others and also live a holy life otherwise too, I don't think God listens to your prayers. I don't think he would go up to bat for you.

 

[prism]

We love all men for the same reason we are to tell all men the Gospel.
It is commanded, the difference is God equips us with His Spirit to perform that which is commanded.
We forgive because God first forgave us, to approach it otherwise would be to turn forgiveness into a meritorious work, thus dismantling grace.

 

[Lamb]

We love all men for the same reason we are to tell all men the Gospel.
It is commanded, the difference is God equips us with His Spirit to perform that which is commanded.
We forgive because God first forgave us, to approach it otherwise would be to turn forgiveness into a meritorious work, thus dismantling grace.

Actually, the Calvinists CAN'T go out and tell all the men the Gospel because the Gospel is that God forgives.

 

[prism]

Actually, the Calvinists CAN'T go out and tell all the men the Gospel because the Gospel is that God forgives.

My understanding is that they can’t give the Gospel message in personal terms e.g. “Jesus died and rose for your sins but rather in more general terms “Jesus died for mankind’s sins” and then they leave it at that trusting that ‘he who has ears (the elect) let him hear’. At least it avoids all the man made manipulation, gimmickry and cajoling etc.

 

[Albion]

My understanding is that they can’t give the Gospel message in personal terms e.g. “Jesus died and rose for your sins but rather in more general terms “Jesus died for mankind’s sins” and then they leave it at that trusting that ‘he who has ears (the elect) let him hear’. At least it avoids all the man made manipulation, gimmickry and cajoling etc.

What "they" actually say under those circumstances, I don't know. However, it would seem that somebody who believes in predestination could logically put it the way you have described here IF he was trying to be technically correct.

I do know that there are some few Calvinists who are opposed to missionary work on the grounds that God has predetermined his elect, meaning that there's no point in trying to introduce the Bible to anyone or urge them to join a church, etc. The great majority of Calvinists firmly disagree with that view, by the way, holding that everyone has an obligation to live right, according to God's laws, regardless of where they wind up in the afterlife..

 

[Lamb]

My understanding is that they can’t give the Gospel message in personal terms e.g. “Jesus died and rose for your sins but rather in more general terms “Jesus died for mankind’s sins” and then they leave it at that trusting that ‘he who has ears (the elect) let him hear’. At least it avoids all the man made manipulation, gimmickry and cajoling etc.

Well, if they say that Jesus died for mankind's sins, aren't they lying since they don't believe that Jesus really died for "mankind's sins"? They only believe He died for SOME of mankind's sins?

 

[prism]

Well, if they say that Jesus died for mankind's sins, aren't they lying since they don't believe that Jesus really died for "mankind's sins"? They only believe He died for SOME of mankind's sins?

That would be a general call, as we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, but the 'elect' will respond in due time.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Albion]

That would be a general call, as we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, but the 'elect' will respond in due time.

Nevertheless, the wording that you were asked about says that Jesus died for "mankind's sins," not those of an Elect.

 

[Lamb]

That would be a general call, as we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, but the 'elect' will respond in due time.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Then God is asking you to lie to people by saying He forgives mankind when you believe He only forgives some? Why tell the others He forgives if it doesn't apply to them? God wouldn't tell anyone to lie.

 

[prism]

Then God is asking you to lie to people by saying He forgives mankind when you believe He only forgives some? Why tell the others He forgives if it doesn't apply to them? God wouldn't tell anyone to lie.

I'm not sure where you came up with that. He freely forgives those who put their trust in Jesus, i.e. those whom He had predestinated in time He calls and justifies those who heed His Gospel call.
Did He call everyone? Does He justify all?