Limited Atonement folks can't say God Loves You

[Albion]

How is this not stacking the deck? Sheep & Goats are present at the end of the world. Jesus said he died for his sheep, excluding the goats. How can you honestly say he died for the goats?

It's what the Bible says, Dave!

You've been shown that innumerable times.

So, if a person believes that the Bible is divine revelation, that is the determining factor. No amount of mental gymnastics can trump the word of God.

 

[1689Dave]

It's what the Bible says, Dave!

You've been shown that innumerable times.

So, if a person believes that the Bible is divine revelation, that is the determining factor. No amount of mental gymnastics can trump the word of God.

It's what you want the Bible to say but many prove you wrong. All of the historic Reformed creeds, Presbyterian creeds, Baptist creeds, and more.

 

[Lamb]

The poor children who can't be told God loves them with any assurance... oh woe to them.

 

[1689Dave]

The poor children who can't be told God loves them with any assurance... oh woe to them.

It's a lie. People are born wicked and hated by God.

 

[1689Dave]

God hates sinners: According to a few prominent Christians:

THE HISTORICAL POSITION OF THE CHURCH AS REVEALED BY ITS REPRESENTATIVES
AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo):

“For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys. ” (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)


JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): “But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them. ” (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)


JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. ” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)


CHARLES G. FINNEY: “The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer, but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger. ” (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)
Page 2/33


F. DELITZSCH : “Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters... SUCH MEN JEHOVAH HATES: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love, ” ... “And His soul HATES the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth. ” (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122, 189)


CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore, in contrast, He loves the righteous... ” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)


AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG: “There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin. ” (Systematic Theology, p.290f)


J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. ’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy. ” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)


LAYMAN ’S BIBLE COMMENTARY: “God’s Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to HATE BOTH THE SINNER AND HIS SIN. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but there is truth here we dare not overlook. ”


MATTHEW HENRY ’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their prosperity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves. ”



THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: “But the wicked HIS SOUL DOTH HATE... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and HE HATES THEM FROM HIS VERY SOUL. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and HATING His deadly enemies... ”

THE INTERPRETER ’S BIBLE: “In vs. 5 the verb ‘trieth ’ has its object both the righteous and the wicked and means no more that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, HATING THE LATTER and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them. ”

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: “Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who HATES ALL ‘DOERS OF SIN. ’
Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: HE DETESTS THE MAN OF BLOODY DEEDS AND DECEI
TS. ”

THE CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD

“God hates the sin but loves the sinner ” has become the motto of American evangelism today. Certainly, God hates
sin – about this there can be no equivocation. And the Bible makes it plain that God loves the sinner. But the Bible also
states unambiguously, with striking frequency, that GOD HATES SINNERS. The Bible says that He will laugh at the wicked when their calamity comes like a whirlwind and that He rejoices over the wicked to destroy them. If you find this concept of God incompatible with the tenets of your religion, I question whether you really know the God of the Bible.

Justice is an attribute of love. A Judge in a courtroom of justice rejoices to catch the criminals, convict, and punish them
. Is it because he is unloving? No. If he is loving, he will be glad the rapists, murderers, car thieves, child molesters are
sent to jail - for the greater good of society. God hates sinners in the same sense a Judge would hate criminals - for the
greater good of mankind! God hates sinners in the same sense that He hates the devil - to promote the general welfare
of man. Not because God is hateful, but because He is benevolent. For the greater good of the universe, He will rid the
earth of all rebels and reign forever. It’s best, it’s right, it’s the loving thing to do. As long as sinners serve the devil

 

[Lamb]

It's a lie. People are born wicked and hated by God.

So you're admitting that I'm right that you can't say to your children that God loves them because you really aren't sure? (according to your theology)

 

[Albion]

It's what you want the Bible to say but many prove you wrong. All of the historic Reformed creeds, Presbyterian creeds, Baptist creeds, and more.

But note, that's not the case with the Creeds that define the Christian faith for Catholics, the Reformed churches, the Anglican Churches, and the Orthodox Eastern churches--

the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian Creed.

 

[1689Dave]

So you're admitting that I'm right that you can't say to your children that God loves them because you really aren't sure? (according to your theology)

Martin Luther says; First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.

For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation.

But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved.

These things, therefore, are openly proclaimed for the sake of the Elect: that, being by these means humbled and brought down to nothing, they might be saved.

The rest resist this humiliation; nay, they condemn the teaching of self-desperation; they wish to have left a little something that they may do themselves. These secretly remain proud, and adversaries to the grace of God. This, I say, is one reason—that those who fear God, being humbled, might know, call upon, and receive the grace of God.[1]

Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

---

[1] Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

 

[Albion]

So you're admitting that I'm right that you can't say to your children that God loves them because you really aren't sure? (according to your theology)

That would seem to be inescapably correct, yes.

 

[1689Dave]

That would seem to be inescapably correct, yes.

Are people born sinful? Is that why they die? Do you have locks on your doors? Or worse, a gun?

 

[Albion]

Are people born sinful? Is that why they die? Do you have locks on your doors? Or worse, a gun?

The issue here was whether or not God hates his creation, not whether humans are capable of doing bad things to each other.

 

[1689Dave]

The issue here was whether or not God hates his creation, not whether humans are capable of doing bad things to each other.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Even when helping old ladies cross the street.

 

[Josiah]

God hates sinners: According to a few prominent Christians:

THE HISTORICAL POSITION OF THE CHURCH AS REVEALED BY ITS REPRESENTATIVES
AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo):

“For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys. ” (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)


JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): “But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them. ” (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)


JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. ” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)


CHARLES G. FINNEY: “The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer, but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger. ” (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)
Page 2/33


F. DELITZSCH : “Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters... SUCH MEN JEHOVAH HATES: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love, ” ... “And His soul HATES the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth. ” (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122, 189)


CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore, in contrast, He loves the righteous... ” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)


AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG: “There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin. ” (Systematic Theology, p.290f)


J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. ’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy. ” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)


LAYMAN ’S BIBLE COMMENTARY: “God’s Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to HATE BOTH THE SINNER AND HIS SIN. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but there is truth here we dare not overlook. ”


MATTHEW HENRY ’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their prosperity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves. ”



THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: “But the wicked HIS SOUL DOTH HATE... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and HE HATES THEM FROM HIS VERY SOUL. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and HATING His deadly enemies... ”

THE INTERPRETER ’S BIBLE: “In vs. 5 the verb ‘trieth ’ has its object both the righteous and the wicked and means no more that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, HATING THE LATTER and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them. ”

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: “Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who HATES ALL ‘DOERS OF SIN. ’
Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: HE DETESTS THE MAN OF BLOODY DEEDS AND DECEI
TS. ”

THE CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD

“God hates the sin but loves the sinner ” has become the motto of American evangelism today. Certainly, God hates
sin – about this there can be no equivocation. And the Bible makes it plain that God loves the sinner. But the Bible also
states unambiguously, with striking frequency, that GOD HATES SINNERS. The Bible says that He will laugh at the wicked when their calamity comes like a whirlwind and that He rejoices over the wicked to destroy them. If you find this concept of God incompatible with the tenets of your religion, I question whether you really know the God of the Bible.

Justice is an attribute of love. A Judge in a courtroom of justice rejoices to catch the criminals, convict, and punish them
. Is it because he is unloving? No. If he is loving, he will be glad the rapists, murderers, car thieves, child molesters are
sent to jail - for the greater good of society. God hates sinners in the same sense a Judge would hate criminals - for the
greater good of mankind! God hates sinners in the same sense that He hates the devil - to promote the general welfare
of man. Not because God is hateful, but because He is benevolent. For the greater good of the universe, He will rid the
earth of all rebels and reign forever. It’s best, it’s right, it’s the loving thing to do. As long as sinners serve the devil

Ah, again, you not only deny the necessity of faith but the reality of grace.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Ah, again, you not only deny the necessity of faith but the reality of grace.



.

You cannot have faith unless first born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Choosing to believe means you do not have the Holy Spirit's faith.

 

[tango]

Maybe we should reword the song, given what we've learned from this thread so far:


Jesus hates the little children
Red and yellow, black and white
Jesus hates the little children
None are precious in his sight

 

[Stravinsk]

In terms of goodwill, I think numerous Scriptures make clear that God's love is of the kind that would see a person turn from evil, not only for other's sake, but for their own.

I think it's also clear from numerous Scriptures that God hates wickedness, and obviously be extension, the wicked person.

The spillover point, if you will, is when the doctrine of Original Sin enters, and we get people with black and white thinking saying stuff like we are wicked from birth, or no one can do anything with a good motive not tainted, and other such nonsense.

 

[1689Dave]

Maybe we should reword the song, given what we've learned from this thread so far:


Jesus hates the little children
Red and yellow, black and white
Jesus hates the little children
None are precious in his sight

Why do children die if not for sin? If God does not hate sinners, why did Christ die in the place of the elect?

Here's a song just for the Pelagians

Contingent Grace (To the tune of Amazing Grace).

contingent grace how sweet the sound
that saves by works foreseen
I once was lost but came around
was blind but chose to see

'twas grace that looked ahead in time
and saw that I would be
never bound by sin and such
but with a will that's free

Through many dangers, toils, and snares
the preacher says I've come
the works that brought me safe thus far
if kept will lead me home

 

[Stravinsk]

Why do children die if not for sin? If God does not hate sinners, why did Christ die in the place of the elect?

I hate to break it to you Dave, but someday you're going to die. I know it must be hard for you to accept this, being one of the few elect and all, but it will happen.

I guess when you do, others can look back and say you were never really elect and were a wicked sinner like infants and children who don't get the right baptism formula or believe as you do, right?

 

[1689Dave]

I hate to break it to you Dave, but someday you're going to die. I know it must be hard for you to accept this, being one of the few elect and all, but it will happen.

I guess when you do, others can look back and say you were never really elect and were a wicked sinner like infants and children who don't get the right baptism formula or believe as you do, right?

Death is a blessing for me if not for you. Paul says:

“So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” 1 Corinthians 15:54–56 (KJV 1900)

“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” Philippians 1:21–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[Stravinsk]

Death is a blessing for me if not for you. (snip, Paul's garbage)

Right Dave. But if you want to look down your nose at *un-elect* children and infants, it's their physical death that is the proof of their wickedness. But you're physical death, well, that means something else.

You realize how hypocritical you are, don't you? The double standard in your arguments stinks to high heaven.