A Catholic perspective on Limited Atonement and Universal Atonement arguments.

[MoreCoffee]

John 9:40–10:2 (KJV 1900)

Different chapter, different listeners.

 

[1689Dave]

Different chapter, different listeners.

Same group, no chapters in the original.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Same group, no chapters in the original.

Same crowd, not same people addressed. Take a closer look.

 

[1689Dave]

Same crowd, not same people addressed. Take a closer look.

There are no chapters or verses in the original. Sorry. Notice the same topic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are no chapters or verses in the original. Sorry.

You are not sorry. Take a look at the location in chapter 9, take a look at the location in chapter 10. There is movement.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.​

John 9:1-7

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.​

John 10:22-26

One is near the pool of Siloam, the other in the temple near Solomon's porch.

 

[1689Dave]

You are not sorry. Take a look at the location in chapter 9, take a look at the location in chapter 10. There is movement.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.​

John 9:1-7

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.​

John 10:22-26

One is near the pool of Siloam, the other in the temple near Solomon's porch.

View attachment 1942

But the topic remains the same. = same group.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But the topic remains the same. = same group.

You want it to be Pharisees rather than the Jews, the former suits your theology so you force the bible to fit your idea and refuse to let the scriptures say what they say. John 10:26 is addressed to the Jews. You deny it by your words, and your "signature". It tells a story about you, but says little about the scriptures.

 

[1689Dave]

You want it to be Pharisees rather than the Jews, the former suits your theology so you force the bible to fit your idea and refuse to let the scriptures say what they say. John 10:26 is address to the Jews. You deny it by your words, and your "signature". It tells a story about you, but says little about the scriptures.

Either way. But God did curse many Pharisees so they could not believe and be saved. How can these not be the same group?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Either way. But God did curse many Pharisees so they could not believe and be saved. How can these not be the same group?

You must come clean, and speak the truth. The verse you have made so much of in your claims does not say what you claim it says. It is not a condemnation of the Pharisees, it is a comment made to the Jews and the same passage tells us that some of the Jews believed what Jesus had said. This is no proof for "Limited Atonement" it is an invitation to repent and believe.

 

[1689Dave]

You must come clean, and speak the truth. The verse you have made so much of in your claims does not say what you claim it says. It is not a condemnation of the Pharisees, it is a comment made to the Jews and the same passage tells us that some of the Jews believed what Jesus had said. This is no proof for "Limited Atonement" it is an invitation to repent and believe.

The topic and audience are the same. No chapters or verses in the originals. Plus God cursed many Pharisees so they could not believe and be saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The topic and audience are the same. No chapters or verses in the originals. Plus God cursed many Pharisees so they could not believe and be saved.

You will not believe, because your theology blinds you. - a paraphrase of the words you are so keen to apply to Pharisees.

 

[1689Dave]

You will not believe, because your theology blinds you. - a paraphrase of the words you are so keen to apply to Pharisees.

I believe scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe scripture.

The evidence of your posts implies that you believe your theology first and then alter scripture to make it fit your theology.

• You say world cannot mean world in John 1:29 and insist that it must mean the elect.
• You say that 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "the whole world" as it says, you say it must mean "believers alone".
• You say that John 10:26 cannot be speaking to the Jews but rather it must be addressed to some of the Pharisees who you deem to be hell bound people with no hope of salvation.

This is all evidence that your theology is the interpreter of scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

The evidence of your posts implies that you believe your theology first and then alter scripture to make it fit your theology.

• You say world cannot mean world in John 1:29 and insist that it must mean the elect.
• You say that 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "the whole world" as it says, you say it must mean "believers alone".
• You say that John 10:26 cannot be speaking to the Jews but rather it must be addressed to some of the Pharisees who you deem to be hell bound people with no hope of salvation.

This is all evidence that your theology is the interpreter of scripture.

Romans 11:7​

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 11:7​

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16-17

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30

Therefore, I say: Has God driven away his people? Let it not be so! For I, too, am an Israelite of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God has not driven away his people, whom he foreknew. And do you not know what Scripture says in Elijah, how he calls upon God against Israel? "Lord, they have slain your Prophets. They have overturned your altars. And I alone remain, and they are seeking my life." But what is the Divine response to him? "I have retained for myself seven thousand men, who have not bent their knees before Baal." Therefore, in the same way, again in this time, there is a remnant that has been saved in accord with the choice of grace. And if it is by grace, then it is not now by works; otherwise grace is no longer free. What is next? What Israel was seeking, he has not obtained. But the elect have obtained it. And truly, these others have been blinded, just as it was written: "God has given them a spirit of reluctance: eyes that do not perceive, and ears that do not hear, even until this very day." And David says: "Let their table become like a snare, and a deception, and a scandal, and a retribution for them. Let their eyes be obscured, so that they may not see, and so that they may bow down their backs always."
Romans 11:1-10

Read with care. The message is not hard to understand. Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[1689Dave]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16-17

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30

Therefore, I say: Has God driven away his people? Let it not be so! For I, too, am an Israelite of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God has not driven away his people, whom he foreknew. And do you not know what Scripture says in Elijah, how he calls upon God against Israel? "Lord, they have slain your Prophets. They have overturned your altars. And I alone remain, and they are seeking my life." But what is the Divine response to him? "I have retained for myself seven thousand men, who have not bent their knees before Baal." Therefore, in the same way, again in this time, there is a remnant that has been saved in accord with the choice of grace. And if it is by grace, then it is not now by works; otherwise grace is no longer free. What is next? What Israel was seeking, he has not obtained. But the elect have obtained it. And truly, these others have been blinded, just as it was written: "God has given them a spirit of reluctance: eyes that do not perceive, and ears that do not hear, even until this very day." And David says: "Let their table become like a snare, and a deception, and a scandal, and a retribution for them. Let their eyes be obscured, so that they may not see, and so that they may bow down their backs always."
Romans 11:1-10

Read with care. The message is not hard to understand. Many are called, few are chosen.

But: “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)

 

[MoreCoffee]

But

Alas, the one word that has always been at the root of errors of almost every kind.

 

[1689Dave]

Alas, the one word that has always been at the root of errors of almost every kind.

1 Peter 2:8​

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[Josiah]

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it.

1 Peter 2:88 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it. But then again, since Scripture doesn't teach your terrible invention, you either must evade Scripture (as you do when you ask questions in lieu of proving Scripture doesn't agree with you) OR you must CHANGE the verse by adding "NO' or NOT or similar ... or give Scriptures that don't teach what you do. You have no other options.




.

 

[Josiah]

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412

410 Mt 18:14.
411 Mt 20:28; cf. Rom 5:18-19.
412 Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; I Jn 2:2.

Not one mention of "universal atonement". That's just tough for you @Josiah.

@MoreCoffee


The Catholic Church has officially affirmed by Jesus died for all since the Council of Quiercy in 853 at the latest. The affirmation that Jesus died for all is what the radical Anti-Calvin theologians labeled "Universal Atonement." That moniker is THEIR label, not ours. In the Lutheran Confessions and in the Anglican Confessions, we state the very same thing as the Catholic Church does on this point, but like the Catholic Church, we don't have a moniker for the view, we just affirm that view. But (for better or worse), that's the title TULIP Anti-Calvin radicals insist on using and insist that we use.

But these are the two positions:
1. Jesus died for all.
2. Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few.

The first is upheld by Scripture, the Council of Quiercy, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, most Baptists and "Evangelical" churches... as well as by the Early Church Fathers and the faith of Christians. The second is upheld by a TINY subgroup of Calvinists, people with a certain "spin" on TULIP.


Blessings on your Advent and Christmas seasons....