A Catholic perspective on Limited Atonement and Universal Atonement arguments.

[MoreCoffee]

But (for better or worse), that's the title TULIP Anti-Calvin radicals insist on using and insist that we use.

I do not use it. I am not beholding to these people. I need not conform to their expectations. Besides which, the Catholic Church's view is that scripture expresses itself on this matter in the vocabulary that Catholics use. So, it is not a Catholic Church problem when people from some religion outside of the Catholic Church demand that, "Universal Atonement", be used. I say, "so what? I am not a part of your group."

 

[Josiah]

I do not use it.

It doesn't matter (much) what monikers one uses (or doesn't use).
Since the 17th Century, there have been TWO views on this.


1. Jesus died for all people. (You may name this view Pink Lightening if you like, the view is what it is).

+ This is what the Bible SO often, verbatim, states.
+ This is what was believed and taught by the Church Fathers
+ This is the teaching of the Church Council
+ This is what was affirmed by Luther and Calvin.
+ This is what is taught in the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, Anglican Church, Lutheran Church, Methodist Church, most Baptists and Evangelical churches and well beyond.

Brother, it does not help to insist the Catholic Church does not teach this. You MAY indicate the Catholic Church does not use this moniker, but then Lutherans and Anglicans don't either. Yes, as a Catholic, you ARE in "this group."


2. Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some FEW. (Call it Hudson Hornet if you like, the view is what it is).

+ Taught nowhere in Scripture
+ Taught and believed nowhere by anyone for over 1600 years
+ Invented by some very radical Anti-Calvin Calvinists in reaction to some equally radical and absurd Arminianists/Pelagianists
+ Largely rejected for centuries in Calvinism, but still upheld by some very, very few Reformed Christians.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since the 17th Century, there have been TWO views on this.

In Protestantism, "since the 17th Century, there have been TWO views on this".

The Catholic Church has had a single view about Christ being the one who, "takes away the sin of the world", for a very long time.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it.





Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it. But then again, since Scripture doesn't teach your terrible invention, you either must evade Scripture (as you do when you ask questions in lieu of proving Scripture doesn't agree with you) OR you must CHANGE the verse by adding "NO' or NOT or similar ... or give Scriptures that don't teach what you do. You have no other options.




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Passionate? Because any other atonement results in salvation by works that cannot save.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it.





Again, yet again, still another time.... you yourself prove that your horrible Anti-Calvin invention is missing from Scripture. Why you seem SO passionate about proving your view is not found in Scripture is unknown to me but you do go on and on proving it. But then again, since Scripture doesn't teach your terrible invention, you either must evade Scripture (as you do when you ask questions in lieu of proving Scripture doesn't agree with you) OR you must CHANGE the verse by adding "NO' or NOT or similar ... or give Scriptures that don't teach what you do. You have no other options.




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I don't trust Calvin either. He believes just as you do in many things. But scripture only teaches Limited Atonement.

 

[1689Dave]

In Protestantism, "since the 17th Century, there have been TWO views on this".

The Catholic Church has had a single view about Christ being the one who, "takes away the sin of the world", for a very long time.

Why do nearly all perish?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do nearly all perish?

Because all have sinned.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned. For even before the law, sin was in the world, but sin was not imputed while the law did not exist. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses, even in those who have not sinned, in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. But the gift is not entirely like the offense. For though by the offense of one, many died, yet much more so, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, has the grace and gift of God abounded to many. And the sin through one is not entirely like the gift. For certainly, the judgment of one was unto condemnation, but the grace toward many offenses is unto justification. For though, by the one offense, death reigned through one, yet so much more so shall those who receive an abundance of grace, both of the gift and of justice, reign in life through the one Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life. For, just as through the disobedience of one man, many were established as sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many shall be established as just. Now the law entered in such a way that offenses would abound. But where offenses were abundant, grace was superabundant. So then, just as sin has reigned unto death, so also may grace reign through justice unto eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21

 

[1689Dave]

Because all have sinned.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned. For even before the law, sin was in the world, but sin was not imputed while the law did not exist. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses, even in those who have not sinned, in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. But the gift is not entirely like the offense. For though by the offense of one, many died, yet much more so, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, has the grace and gift of God abounded to many. And the sin through one is not entirely like the gift. For certainly, the judgment of one was unto condemnation, but the grace toward many offenses is unto justification. For though, by the one offense, death reigned through one, yet so much more so shall those who receive an abundance of grace, both of the gift and of justice, reign in life through the one Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life. For, just as through the disobedience of one man, many were established as sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many shall be established as just. Now the law entered in such a way that offenses would abound. But where offenses were abundant, grace was superabundant. So then, just as sin has reigned unto death, so also may grace reign through justice unto eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21

But Jesus paid for their sins did he not? Why do so many perish?

 

[MoreCoffee]

But Jesus paid for their sins did he not? Why do so many perish?

You will die, will you not?

When you say "perish" are you thinking of the last judgement?

But when the Son of man will have arrived in his majesty, and all the Angels with him, then he will sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all the nations shall be gathered together before him. And he shall separate them from one another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he shall station the sheep, indeed, on his right, but the goats on his left. Then the King shall say to those who will be on his right: "Come, you blessed of my Father. Possess the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you covered me; sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me." Then the just will answer him, saying: "Lord, when have we see you hungry, and fed you; thirsty, and given you drink? And when have we seen you a stranger, and taken you in? Or naked, and covered you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit to you?" And in response, the King shall say to them, "Amen I say to you, whenever you did this for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did it for me." Then he shall also say, to those who will be on his left: "Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and you did not give me to drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in; naked, and you did not cover me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me." Then they will also answer him, saying: "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?" Then he shall respond to them by saying: "Amen I say to you, whenever you did not do it to one of these least, neither did you do it to me." And these shall go into eternal punishment, but the just shall go into eternal life."​

Matthew 25:31-46

 

[1689Dave]

You will die, will you not?

When you say "perish" are you thinking of the last judgement?

But when the Son of man will have arrived in his majesty, and all the Angels with him, then he will sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all the nations shall be gathered together before him. And he shall separate them from one another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he shall station the sheep, indeed, on his right, but the goats on his left. Then the King shall say to those who will be on his right: "Come, you blessed of my Father. Possess the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you covered me; sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me." Then the just will answer him, saying: "Lord, when have we see you hungry, and fed you; thirsty, and given you drink? And when have we seen you a stranger, and taken you in? Or naked, and covered you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit to you?" And in response, the King shall say to them, "Amen I say to you, whenever you did this for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did it for me." Then he shall also say, to those who will be on his left: "Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and you did not give me to drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in; naked, and you did not cover me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me." Then they will also answer him, saying: "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?" Then he shall respond to them by saying: "Amen I say to you, whenever you did not do it to one of these least, neither did you do it to me." And these shall go into eternal punishment, but the just shall go into eternal life."​

Matthew 25:31-46

Perish = go to hell when you die as I use it. So why do they perish if Jesus paid for their sins?

 

[Josiah]

In Protestantism, "since the 17th Century, there have been TWO views on this".

The Catholic Church has had a single view about Christ being the one who, "takes away the sin of the world", for a very long time.

The identical one as in perhaps 99% of Protestantism.


.

 

[Josiah]

But Jesus paid for their sins did he not? Why do so many perish?

Since you have NOTHING in Scripture or history, all you have is a question founded entirely on a heresy, the heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification. Sad. Very sad.



.

 

[1689Dave]

The identical one as in perhaps 99% of Protestantism.


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They are in bed together. It will get worse as the great apostasy creeps further in.

 

[1689Dave]

Since you have NOTHING in Scripture or history, all you have is a question founded entirely on a heresy, the heresy that faith is irrelevant to personal justification. Sad. Very sad.



.

Faith is not external, something you will to have or not to have. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit Only the saved experience. And salvation happens before the will ever comes into play.

 

[Josiah]

Faith is not external, something you will to have or not to have. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit Only the saved experience. And salvation happens before the will ever comes into play.

Then you reject that faith is necessary for personal justification. Exactly as you have been accused. Yup. Your entire apologetic rests on a heresy, a question flowing from that heresy, and the COMPLETE, TOTAL lack of even one Scripture that states your horrible invention.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Then you reject that faith is necessary for personal justification. Exactly as you have been accused. Yup. Your entire apologetic rests on a heresy, a question flowing from that heresy, and the COMPLETE, TOTAL lack of even one Scripture that states your horrible invention.



.

But you cannot have faith without having the Holy Spirit. It's a fruit of the Spirit. What many call faith cannot save. If you are saved you will have faith.

 

[Josiah]

But you cannot have faith without having the Holy Spirit.

Yes. Now, are you EVER going to stop all the rabbit holes, all the red herrings, all the diversions. We all KNOW why you do this: It's the only "caught debator" thing - when you have nothing to support your position, try to change the topic to something you CAN support. You do it often.

We're not talking about whether faith is 100% the work and gift of God (all of us supporting the historic, Gospel position believe that) or whatever. The issue is does Scripture state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some FEW. I understand why you constantly need to get the focus on something else, something you CAN defend, but we're on to you. It's a Junior High Debate Team method - that doesn't work for them.

Your apologetic is: If Jesus died for all then all are saved." That apologetic is founded ENTIRELY on the point that faith is irrelevant to the issue, faith has no role. Which is why when we respond, "but faith is also essential" you MUST either ignore us (or admit your heresy) - this is what you nearly always do - or change the subject AGAIN, off on another game of chasing rabbits down rabbit holes, more red herrings, more diversions.


Stop all the games.

We quoted - verbatim, no spins - our Scriptures that flat out state our position. "Jesus died for all."
You have offered NOTHING that states your position: "Jesus did not die for all but only for some few."
Why haven't you? You can't.
We all know it.
You do too.
You've proved it.
Over and over and over and over and over and over.
Stop the desperate, pathetic games.
You're wasting our time.



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.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes. Now, are you EVER going to stop all the rabbit holes, all the red herrings, all the diversions. We all KNOW why you do this: It's the only "caught debator" thing - when you have nothing to support your position, try to change the topic to something you CAN support. You do it often.

We're not talking about whether faith is 100% the work and gift of God (all of us supporting the historic, Gospel position believe that) or whatever. The issue is does Scripture state that Jesus died for all OR does it state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some FEW. I understand why you constantly need to get the focus on something else, something you CAN defend, but we're on to you. It's a Junior High Debate Team method - that doesn't work for them.

Your apologetic is: If Jesus died for all then all are saved." That apologetic is founded ENTIRELY on the point that faith is irrelevant to the issue, faith has no role. Which is why when we respond, "but faith is also essential" you MUST either ignore us (or admit your heresy) - this is what you nearly always do - or change the subject AGAIN, off on another game of chasing rabbits down rabbit holes, more red herrings, more diversions.


Stop all the games.

We quoted - verbatim, no spins - our Scriptures that flat out state our position. "Jesus died for all."
You have offered NOTHING that states your position: "Jesus did not die for all but only for some few."
Why haven't you? You can't.
We all know it.
You do too.
You've proved it.
Over and over and over and over and over and over.
Stop the desperate, pathetic games.
You're wasting our time.



.

.

Faith, as in the milk of human kindness will not save. Faith is a supernatural gift of God that happens before the will ever becomes involved. Only those with it can understand what I'm talking about.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perish = go to hell when you die as I use it. So why do they perish if Jesus paid for their sins?

The definition that you've given is not how the word is used in scripture.
ἀπόλλυμι

apóllumi or apolúō; fut. apolésō, 2d aor. apōlómēn, perf. apolṓleka, 2d perf. apólōla, mid. fut. apoloúmai, from apó (G575) an intens., the mid. óllumi (n.f.), to destroy. The force of apó here is away or wholly; therefore, the verb is stronger than the simple óllumi. To destroy, mid. be destroyed, perish. Also from óllumi (n.f.): ólethros (G3639), rain, destruction.​

​

(I) Act. form:​

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.:​

(1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14).​

(2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.​

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).​

(b) Spoken of eternal death, i.e., future punishment, exclusion from the Messiah's kingdom. In this sense it has the same meaning as apothnḗskō (G599), to die (Mat 10:28; Mar 1:24; Luk 4:34; Luk 9:56). This eternal death is called the second death (Rev 20:14). In Luk 9:25, to "destroy himself" (a.t.) means to subject himself to eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life (Joh 6:50-51, Joh 6:58). Physical and eternal death are to be distinguished (Joh 8:21, Joh 8:24; Joh 11:25-26; Rom 7:10; Rom 8:13).​

(B) To lose, be deprived of, trans. of such things as reward (Mar 9:41); a sheep (Luk 15:4); a drachma or coin (Luk 15:8-9). See Joh 6:39; 2Jn 1:8; Sept.: Pro 29:3. To lose one's life or soul (Mat 10:39; Mat 16:25; Mar 8:35; Luk 9:24; Luk 17:33; Joh 12:25).​

 

[1689Dave]

The definition that you've given is not how the word is used in scripture.
ἀπόλλυμι

apóllumi or apolúō; fut. apolésō, 2d aor. apōlómēn, perf. apolṓleka, 2d perf. apólōla, mid. fut. apoloúmai, from apó (G575) an intens., the mid. óllumi (n.f.), to destroy. The force of apó here is away or wholly; therefore, the verb is stronger than the simple óllumi. To destroy, mid. be destroyed, perish. Also from óllumi (n.f.): ólethros (G3639), rain, destruction.​

​

(I) Act. form:​

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.:​

(1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14).​

(2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.​

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).​

(b) Spoken of eternal death, i.e., future punishment, exclusion from the Messiah's kingdom. In this sense it has the same meaning as apothnḗskō (G599), to die (Mat 10:28; Mar 1:24; Luk 4:34; Luk 9:56). This eternal death is called the second death (Rev 20:14). In Luk 9:25, to "destroy himself" (a.t.) means to subject himself to eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life (Joh 6:50-51, Joh 6:58). Physical and eternal death are to be distinguished (Joh 8:21, Joh 8:24; Joh 11:25-26; Rom 7:10; Rom 8:13).​

(B) To lose, be deprived of, trans. of such things as reward (Mar 9:41); a sheep (Luk 15:4); a drachma or coin (Luk 15:8-9). See Joh 6:39; 2Jn 1:8; Sept.: Pro 29:3. To lose one's life or soul (Mat 10:39; Mat 16:25; Mar 8:35; Luk 9:24; Luk 17:33; Joh 12:25).​

Thanks. I'll add this to my notes. Just remember though, our main topic is how Jesus did not die for those who did not believe in John 10. And that was the reason they did not believe.