A Catholic perspective on Limited Atonement and Universal Atonement arguments.

[1689Dave]

It is in fact explicit in scripture.

1. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19
2. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

The underlined text comes from scripture. Number 1 tells the reader that one is baptised by those whom Christ sent and that is what 1 in the quote says. And 2 is a direct quote from scripture.

You're a wonder of inconsistency, 1689Dave, here you are a man who has spent decades reading theology and from the scriptures, yet you do not recognise allusion to scripture and direct quotes from scripture. Why is it so, 1689Dave? What blinds you so? Are you so fixed in opposition to the teaching of the Catholic Church that you cannot see scripture when it is quoted as Catholic teaching?

But you completely miss the Biblical teaching on Baptism, completely. Are you even baptized? I say every baptism we see today in the Institutional "Churches" is something other than baptism according to scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But you completely miss the Biblical teaching on Baptism, completely. Are you even baptized? I say every baptism we see today in the Institutional "Churches" is something other than baptism according to scripture.

Try harder to keep on topic. You're too easily diverted by your own ideas. The thread is about Limited Vs Unlimited atonement in Protestantism.

I am a Catholic. Catholics do not do Limited or Unlimited atonement. Catholics acknowledge the mystery of the birth from above. Catholics are content to accept that "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (KJV, used for your sake 1689Dave). We read in our bible,

The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

John 3:8
Or like this,

The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit."​

John 3:8
For Catholics, "atonement", a work of God. He is the one who is at work, and exactly how he accomplishes his work, or what the mechanics of conversion are, we leave to the the scripture texts and do not go beyond what is written. Catholics do not need to give an answer to every question conceived by human beings, sometimes it is wisdom to answer that, "God works this wonder, we rejoice in it". For me, it is sufficient to receive grace from God. I do not need to explain his every work as if I knew all his works.

 

[1689Dave]

Try harder to keep on topic. You're too easily diverted by your own ideas. The thread is about Limited Vs Unlimited atonement in Protestantism.

I am a Catholic. Catholics do not do Limited or Unlimited atonement. Catholics acknowledge the mystery of the birth from above. Catholics are content to accept that "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (KJV, used for your sake 1689Dave). We read in our bible,

The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

John 3:8
Or like this,

The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit."​

John 3:8
For Catholics atonement a work of God. He is the one who is at work and exactly how he accomplishes his work or what the mechanics of conversion are we leave to the ambiguity that exists in the scripture texts. Catholics do not need to give an answer to every question conceived by human beings, sometimes it is wisdom to answer that, "God works this wonder, we rejoice in it". For me, it is sufficient to receive grace from God. I do not need to explain his every work as if I knew all his works.

Scripture limits the atonement to many and denies its application to the Pharisees in Jesus' audience.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Scripture limits the atonement to many and denies its application to the Pharisees in Jesus' audience.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

Even a Pharisee can come to believe in the Lord, some did so, as the scriptures testify. Saint Paul is one example that comes to mind. He said of himself

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.​

Acts 23:6
Thus it is not all pharisees who are not "my sheep", which I think you acknowledge, and it is possible that some among those addressed in John chapter ten became followers of the Lord.

And many believed on him there.​

John 10:42
Read the chapter with care and observe that the sheepfold is not intended to exclude any except thieves and robbers, these were those who came before Christ arrived.

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.​

John 10:7-8
Yet he says that

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.​

John 10:9
The door is the means by which any man may enter the sheepfold.
Some among the Jews objected and some listened.

There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?​

John 10:19-21
And here is the passage to which you appeal so much yet misread, because it does not say Pharisees but Jews.

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

John 10:22-28
You read "Pharisees" into your lesson because that suits your doctrine better than the words in the passage which are "the jews". But if you change to saying, "Scripture limits the atonement to many and denies its application to the Jews in Jesus' audience.", you would show yourself to be contradicting the scriptures shown above, specifically, John 10:19-21 and later in John 10:42.

 

[1689Dave]

Even a Pharisee can come to believe in the Lord, some did so, as the scriptures testify. Saint Paul is one example that comes to mind. He said of himself

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.​

Acts 23:6
Thus it is not all pharisees who are not "my sheep", which I think you acknowledge, and it is possible that some among those addressed in John chapter ten became followers of the Lord.

And many believed on him there.​

John 10:42
Read the chapter with care and observe that the sheepfold is not intended to exclude any except thieves and robbers, these were those who came before Christ arrived.

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.​

John 10:7-8
Yet he says that

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.​

John 10:9
The door is the means by which any man may enter the sheepfold.
Some among the Jews objected and some listened.

There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?​

John 10:19-21
And here is the passage to which you appeal so much yet misread, because it does not say Pharisees but Jews.

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

John 10:22-28
You read "Pharisees" into your lesson because that suits your doctrine better than the words in the passage which are "the jews". But if you change to saying, "Scripture limits the atonement to many and denies its application to the Jews in Jesus' audience.", you would show yourself to be contradicting the scriptures shown above, specifically, John 10:19-21 and later in John 10:42.

“And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” Luke 8:10 (KJV 1900)

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:9–10 (KJV 1900)

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:14–15 (KJV 1900)

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Matthew 13:11 (KJV 1900)

[Staff Edit]

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course, the Bible Buffoons say Jesus died for these he cursed.

It was saint John who said "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!", he was a bible character, he was no buffoon. But I think you intend to denigrate people alive today who say that the Lord died for the sin of the world, and not saint John. Which is worse, I wonder, to speak like that about contemporaries whose theology you dislike, or to speak like that about saint John the Baptist.

 

[1689Dave]

It was saint John who said "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!", he was a bible character, he was no buffoon. But I think you intend to denigrate people alive today who say that the Lord died for the sin of the world, and not saint John. Which is worse, I wonder, to speak like that about contemporaries whose theology you dislike, or to speak like that about saint John the Baptist.

If you would try to think like a first-century Jew, and not a 21st-century American, you would properly balance the scriptures you cannot fit with the others that say just the opposite.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you would try to think like a first-century Jew, and not a 21st-century American, you would properly balance the scriptures you cannot fit with the others that say just the opposite.

I am from Australia, so I do not think like a 21st century American.
You are from the USA, so you do not and cannot think as did a Jew of the first century because you are not a Jew - being a Christians as you say of yourself - and living in 21st century America.

So how is one to read the scriptures? As best we can, with God's help, by that light which the Holy Spirit graciously gives to the faithful both in their hearts and in their minds, and in the writings of those who walked with God before the faithful, alive today, started the journey.

 

[1689Dave]

I am from Australia, so I do not think like a 21st century American.
You are from the USA, so you do not and cannot think as did a Jew of the first century because you are not a Jew - being a Christians as you say of yourself - and living in 21st century America.

So how is one to read the scriptures? As best we can, with God's help, by that light which the Holy Spirit graciously gives to the faithful both in their hearts and in their minds, and in the writings of those who walked with God before the faithful, alive today, started the journey.

Sorry, you seem to think as the average American does. How can you think like a first-century Jew? It takes much study and learning Bible words defined by examples of ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic usage.

Do you guys eat cheeseburgers down under? That's the first step to understanding American culture or lack thereof.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry, you seem to think as the average American does. How can you think like a first-century Jew? It takes much study and learning Bible words defined by examples of ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic usage.

Do you guys eat cheeseburgers down under? That's the first step to understanding American culture or lack thereof.

Cheeseburgers do not make a person American any more than eating pork makes a person German. But, I do not eat fast foods, no cheeseburgers on the plate. But you, you evidence your origins with every post; the extreme individualism so present in your comments is so foreign to Jewish thought in the early centuries AD. And you are not a Jew, because if you were then you would not be writing so much about the New Testament. Nor are you an expert, as far as one can discern from your comments, on Hebrew language, Jewish culture, nor on first century Jewish dispersion culture. Perhaps you have read on some of these matters and having read you account yourself well informed. Then perhaps this saying will be useful:

אמרתי אשׁמרה דרכי מחטוא בלשׁוני אשׁמרה לפי מחסום בעד רשׁע לנגדי׃​

 

[1689Dave]

Cheeseburgers do not make a person American any more than eating pork makes a person German. But, I do not eat fast foods, no cheeseburgers on the plate. But you, you evidence your origins with every post; the extreme individualism so present in your comments is so foreign to Jewish thought in the early centuries AD. And you are not a Jew, because if you were then you would not be writing so much about the New Testament. Nor are you an expert, as far as one can discern from your comments, on Hebrew language, Jewish culture, nor on first century Jewish dispersion culture. Perhaps you have read on some of these matters and having read you account yourself well informed. Then perhaps this saying will be useful:

אמרתי אשׁמרה דרכי מחטוא בלשׁוני אשׁמרה לפי מחסום בעד רשׁע לנגדי׃​

Did you know the Jews ate their young many times in the OT? It would do you good to learn about them.

But you cannot understand scripture unless you understand how they think in the first century. Nobody today does. They don't even understand what made a person a Jew,

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your by-line is erroneous.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But ye [Pharisees] believe not, because ye are not of my sheep [who Jesus gives his life for], as I said unto you.” John 10:11; John 10:26

The passage is addressed to "the Jews" not to Pharisees specifically.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.
John 10:11

The Jews therefore came round about him and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
John 10:24-26

 

[1689Dave]

Your by-line is erroneous.

The passage is addressed to "the Jews" not to Pharisees specifically.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.
John 10:11

The Jews therefore came round about him and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
John 10:24-26

It was the Pharisees in his audience. But they were Jews too. Either way, he did not pay for their sins or they would have believed.

 

[Josiah]

I am a Catholic. Catholics do not do Limited or Unlimited atonement.

@MoreCoffee,


As a Catholic, you are required to hold to Universal Atonement (I have no idea what "unlimited atonement" is).

From your Catechism....

605

Catholics acknowledge the mystery of the birth from above. Catholics are content to accept that "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (KJV, used for your sake 1689Dave). We read in our bible,

The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

John 3:8
Or like this,

The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit."​

John 3:8
For Catholics, "atonement", a work of God. He is the one who is at work, and exactly how he accomplishes his work, or what the mechanics of conversion are, we leave to the the scripture texts and do not go beyond what is written. Catholics do not need to give an answer to every question conceived by human beings, sometimes it is wisdom to answer that, "God works this wonder, we rejoice in it". For me, it is sufficient to receive grace from God. I do not need to explain his every work as if I knew all his works.

 

[1689Dave]

@MoreCoffee,


As a Catholic, you are required to hold to Universal Atonement (I have no idea what "unlimited atonement" is).

From your Catechism....

605

Here is a big problem. Faith comes by hearing the word. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Scripture does not teach anything but limited atonement.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture does not teach anything but limited atonement.

Yet as you have so carefully proved, NOWHERE does Scripture teach it. All your Anti-Calvin proponents of that HORRIBLE theory also prove, there is no verse that states "Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for some FEW." No such scripture exists. Your terrible view is NOWHERE in Scripture. I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it. And you keep proving it.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Yet as you have so carefully proved, NOWHERE does Scripture teach it. All your Anti-Calvin proponents of that HORRIBLE theory also prove, there is no verse that states "Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for some FEW." No such scripture exists. Your terrible view is NOWHERE in Scripture. I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it. And you keep proving it.



.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

= Limited Atonement. You cannot recover from this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was the Pharisees in his audience. But they were Jews too. Either way, he did not pay for their sins or they would have believed.

You ought to stick with the text. Do not add to it (with Pharisees), nor subtract from it (by removing "the Jews"). Just let it say what it says. That is the Catholic way.

 

[MoreCoffee]

605

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412

410 Mt 18:14.
411 Mt 20:28; cf. Rom 5:18-19.
412 Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; I Jn 2:2.

Not one mention of "universal atonement". That's just tough for you @Josiah.

 

[1689Dave]

You ought to stick with the text. Do not add to it (with Pharisees), nor subtract from it (by removing "the Jews"). Just let it say what it says. That is the Catholic way.

“And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.” John 9:40–10:2 (KJV 1900)