Spiritual Unity versus Doctrinal Unity

[Lanman87]

When conversing with some Catholics they point out that Protestant Doctrine is all over the place. There is no church unity in Protestantism and so forth.

Here is my perspective.

Faith and Doctrine are not the same thing. Faith is believing in and trusting God. Doctrine is believing things about God and how He works.

Protestants believe that we saved by Grace Through Faith. Therefore our Unity doesn't come from uniform doctrine (understanding things about God and How he works) but a uniform Faith(Believing and Trusting in Christ). The fact that, by the Grace of God, we share the same Faith in Christ and are all partakers of the same Spirit of God unifies us far more than doctrinal difference could ever divide us.

That is why pretty much every Protestant denomination's statement of faith defines the church as "All True Believers in Christ, wherever they are found". It is often worded differently, my own church words it this way. "The Church is made up of those who have become genuine followers of Jesus Christ and have personally appropriated the gospel." but the meaning is the same.

We believe the Universal Church is made up of all true believers and that those believers can be found in a wide variety of traditions and denominations.

The visible church is wheverever those true believers gather to worship, serve, study the Word, and partake in the sacraments/ordinances of God.

I believe that being wrong about doctrine (and let's face it, we all can't be right) doesn't invalidate either unity with Christ or the Spiritual Unity that all True Believers find by being "In Christ".

That means, (just to pick a doctrine) while I believe that believers baptism in the scriptural mode of Baptism. I also believe that people who practice infant baptism that are genuine followers of Christ are members of the Church, co-laborers in the Kingdom of God, and we will one day be together in Heaven for all eternity.

What are your thoughts on doctrinal difference and church unity?

 

[Albion]

When conversing with some Catholics they point out that Protestant Doctrine is all over the place. There is no church unity in Protestantism and so forth.

The Catholic speaker there is of course using the word faith to mean "belief system" rather than a commitment to the Lord, etc. and that's an valid alternate meaning. And he's also referring to the visible church.

But although the accusation you are reporting is somewhat of a favorite 'attack line' among Catholics, I am sure that many of them were taught that notion by their church and so believe it unquestioningly.

Still, the charge is clearly incorrect, for what it is saying is that "Protestant doctrine" or Protestant anything else is diverse--or 'all over the place' as you said. However, the speaker is referring to thousands of different church bodies or denominations that are loosely classified as "Protestant" but which may have very little in common with some or all other "Protestant" churches.

Meanwhile, the person who says what you reported means to compare all those churches, in one fell swoop, against ONE denomination--the speaker's own, the Roman Catholic Church.

Obviously, if we compare a hundred or a thousand things against ONE other entity only, it is probably going to appear that the former group is not as uniform as the one and only example of something it is being contrasted with!

 

[Josiah]

When conversing with some Catholics they point out that Protestant Doctrine is all over the place. There is no church unity in Protestantism and so forth.

MY perspective here.....


1. Full doctrinal unity is VERY rare. Always has been. We see all over the Bible itself where believers differed on their views on some point or points. Church history is FULL of disagreements - thus all the Church Synods and Councils and Conferences, the ever-expanding body of doctrine.

2. Theoretically, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (as an organization) is CURRENTLY in full unity with one and ONLY ONE: Itself. It is in full unity with no other. EVERY denomination, church and cult can claim AT LEAST so much. So what? SO WHAT? Is there any church, denomination or cult that states, "I disagree with me in what I currently declare as doctrinal Truth?" Certainly the RCC doesn't, but then nor does the LDS.

Faith and Doctrine are not the same thing. Faith is believing in and trusting God. Doctrine is believing things about God and how He works.

VERY TRUE! And a VERY good (and necessary point).

"Faith" CAN be used as our corpus of beliefs, but usually in Scripture (and theology) it means the trust/reliance of the soul in Christ as Savior. Am I of "one FAITH" with all my Catholic relatives (my side of the family) and also with all my Reformed relatives (my wife's side). YES! Absolutely! We are all brothers and sisters in Christ! We are all the Body of Christ. We are all pilgrims on our way to Heaven. "One faith... one Lord... one Baptism."

Do we all agree on everything relating to Christianity? Nope.

Protestants believe that we saved by Grace Through Faith. Therefore our Unity doesn't come from uniform doctrine (understanding things about God and How he works) but a uniform Faith(Believing and Trusting in Christ). The fact that, by the Grace of God, we share the same Faith in Christ and are all partakers of the same Spirit of God unifies us far more than doctrinal difference could ever divide us.

That is why pretty much every Protestant denomination's statement of faith defines the church as "All True Believers in Christ, wherever they are found". It is often worded differently, my own church words it this way. "The Church is made up of those who have become genuine followers of Jesus Christ and have personally appropriated the gospel." but the meaning is the same.

We believe the Universal Church is made up of all true believers and that those believers can be found in a wide variety of traditions and denominations.

Good point!

What is AMAZING about the two BILLION Christian people, the MILLIONS of Christian congregations, the THOUSANDS of Christain denomination is how very much we hold in common in our beliefs. Consider our typical embrace of the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds! Of the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, the inspiration of Scripture. Our believe that God loves us all, that Christ died for us all, that by faith in Christ, we have forgiveness and salvation. And MUCH more!


I "left" the Catholic Church and became a Lutheran (LCMS). But I have very carefully been taught and have studied the 2,865 points in the 800 page long Catholic Catechism. And it's RARE that I disagree with what I read there (I may want to WORD things differently but I agree with the point). I probably accept 95% of what's there. Now, do Catholics and Lutherans disagree on SOME things? Of course (ever heard of the Reformation?). The RCC split itself over this, kicking out those nasty Lutherans! But I think we often forget that we share a LOT, that we probably agree 95% of the time. Yeah, we tend to focus on what divides rather than what unites. Human nature, I suppose.

I believe that being wrong about doctrine (and let's face it, we all can't be right) doesn't invalidate either unity with Christ or the Spiritual Unity that all True Believers find by being "In Christ".

AMEN! AMEN!

While I believe that truth matters.....and we should not just pretend we all agree on everything and sing "Kumbyah" .... I also believe we are all FULL brothers and sisters in Christ. And it should be evident by our love for each other (and others).

Besides, once folks get to heaven, they'll discover we Lutherans were right about everything. And that's soon enough for me.



Thanks for this excellent thread. It NEEDS to be affirmed with some frequency.


Blessings on your Advent and Christmas seasons (even if you don't celebrate either, LOL)


- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

MY perspective here.....


1. Full doctrinal unity is VERY rare. Always has been. We see all over the Bible itself where believers differed on their views on some point or points. Church history is FULL of disagreements - thus all the Church Synods and Councils and Conferences, the ever-expanding body of doctrine.

That seems to me to be a very good point. While the Catholic Church goes to great lengths to spell out its doctrines, this doesn't mean that, in practice, and with the Church's acquiescence, there are not differences of importance among Catholics, Catholic clergy, and Catholic theologians.

These differences don't get reported on very much, but they exist, and are tolerated, surprising as that fact may be.

What is AMAZING about the two BILLION Christian people, the MILLIONS of Christian congregations, the THOUSANDS of Christain denomination is how very much we hold in common in our beliefs. Consider our typical embrace of the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds! Of the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, the inspiration of Scripture. Our believe that God loves us all, that Christ died for us all, that by faith in Christ, we have forgiveness and salvation. And MUCH more!

Absolutely.

 

[Josiah]

That seems to me to be a very good point. While the Catholic Church goes to great lengths to spell out its doctrines, this doesn't mean that, in practice, and with the Church's acquiescence, there are not differences of importance among Catholics, Catholic clergy, and Catholic theologians.

Well, AT BEST, AT MOST, the Catholic Church fully agrees with just one: Itself. And no other.
The same can be said of the LDS and JW's and every church, denomination and cult.
It ain't saying much.

And yeah, it's questionable that even the RCC itself alone fully agrees with even itself on even just those things it itself says it itself should agree with itself. It has for centuries changed its dogma (even if by only adding to or clarifying such - both of which are changing). And of course, that has little relevance to Catholics (members of that church), rarely do they even know what their church teaches.... and even if they do, that has little significance as to whether they agree with it (as is true for other churches, denominations, etc. as well).

But while all that is true, it does not change that the VAST majority of the world's 2+ billion Christians embrace a huge common corpus of beliefs.

And the OP's point of not confusing faith with doctrine is a very helpful one.




. I dedicate all my ending dots to my brother in Christ, MoreCoffee

 

[Albion]

And yeah, it's questionable that even the RCC itself alone fully agrees with even itself on even just those things it itself says it itself should agree with itself. It has for centuries changed its dogma (even if by only adding to or clarifying such - both of which are changing). And of course, that has little relevance to Catholics (members of that church), rarely do they even know what their church teaches.... and even if they do, that has little significance as to whether they agree with it (as is true for other churches, denominations, etc. as well).

Yes, the idea that their denomination is the "only true church" and was founded by Christ himself, supposedly unlike all the other churches.

That's the one belief that Catholics are most committed to, all additional doctrines--transubstantiation, saint veneration, the Papacy, seven sacraments, etc. etc.--aside.

What a contrast that provides when we consider that Protestants generally see it in the exact opposite way, believing that the "invisible" church is the real church, not any of the "visible" church bodies, including the ones in which they have their memberships.