The Unbelieving Pharisees of John 10

[Albion]

In what verse does Jesus state “I am God”?

Actually, he says that he is God in a number of verses and in different ways. In addition, he does not reject the claim when another person says it about him. And then also, he does things that only a god can do.

If he were not God but did all of this anyway, he would be the worst kind of charlatan, a complete phony, in which case he would not be worthy of even the respect that might be accorded a special creation of God, or even a prophet, who is not actually God himself.

Some have settled on thinking of Jesus as some sort of human-divine hybrid. There are people who are reluctant to admit of Jesus being God and want to believe he was instead something like I've just described. In so doing, they try to carve out a "happy medium" between considering him to be God and him being just an ordinary mortal. Dave's view is like that.

However, in more ways than the average person realizes, Jesus proclaimed that he was indeed God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In what verse does Jesus state “I am God”?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 KJV

 

[1689Dave]

Actually, he says that he is God in a number of verses and in different ways. In addition, he does not reject the claim when another person says it about him. And then also, he does things that only a god can do.

If he were not God but did all of this anyway, he would be the worst kind of charlatan, a complete phony, in which case he would not be worthy of even the respect that might be accorded a special creation of God, or even a prophet, who is not actually God himself.

Some have settled on thinking of Jesus as some sort of human-divine hybrid. There are people who are reluctant to admit of Jesus being God and want to believe he was instead something like I've just described. In so doing, they try to carve out a "happy medium" between considering him to be God and him being just an ordinary mortal. Dave's view is like that.

However, in more ways than the average person realizes, Jesus proclaimed that he was indeed God.

"Dave's view is like that." Tell us what my view is.

 

[Albion]

In what verse does Jesus state “I am God”?

Here are some of the verses in which Jesus makes the claim:
John 5:18, 23
John 8:58 (using the name reserved for God among the Jews)
Revelation 1:17
Hebrews 1:8
Matthew 22:43-44

And here are some of the verses in which Jesus accepts being acclaimed as God by other people.
Matthew 8:2
Matthew 9:18)
Matthew 15:25
Matthew 20:20
Mark 5:6

Finally, here is something that puts it into perspective for the ordinary student of the Bible:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." --C.S.Lewis

I was surprised to learn that you were unaware of the mountain of Scriptural evidence that indicates that Jesus was God Incarnate (as all the ancient Christian Creeds also affirm) and claimed it. Or was that not the case when you challenged me, and you were just asking for the listing of verses for the benefit of other readers?

 

[Josiah]

@1689Dave
@atpollard

Let's use another example.....

Was Jesus born in BETHLEHEM?

Well, the following Scriptures verbatim, literally, word-for-word STATE so.
Matthew 2:1 "Jesus was born in Bethlehem"

There's another verse where certain persons state that was the prophecy (but don't actually state that it happened)
Matthew 2:5

We have another verse that states Mary and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem but it doesn't actually state Jesus was born there
Luke 2:4 "To the City of David, which is called Bethlehem."

And another that while not exactly saying Jesus was born in Bethlehem, it does say that's where the shepherds went to worship him.
Luke 2:15

SO....

1. We have one verse that specifically, verbatim states Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
2. We have three that allude to that but don't actually state it (Matthew 2:5, Luke 2:4, Luke 2:15)

And this has been viewed by all Christians as true (no spin, no denial).
No Church Council has affirmed this.

Do you accept that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Based on the the clear words of one text and 3 others that support that? That and the universal belief of the whole church (the Body of Christ) over the many centuries?

Do you think that it's good to accept that Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

Let's say some individual.... 1600 years later.... dogmatically insists that Jesus was NOT born in Bethlehem but in Rome? His opinion. Do you think it might be necessary for him to find a verse that states, "Jesus was born in Rome" or at least "Jesus was not born in Bethehem?" If the Bethehem reference is wrong, should he have at least equal substantiation for his claim as Scripture has?


Well....

We have at least five different Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, literally, in black-and-white words on the page STATES, proclaims and announces that Jesus died for all, for everyone. And several others that support that. FAR better, MUCH stronger support for this than for Jesus born in Bethlehem (and by the way, FAR stronger than for many Christian doctrines I'm sure you support and embrace).

And this has been supported by the Church Fathers, by an Ecumenical Church Council, by John Calvin (founder of Reformed Protestantism) and is taught by the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church, by many Baptist churches and well beyond. And has been believed by Christians for 2000 years.

Do you think that theorist 1500 years later should have at least one verse that specifically states "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some?" Shouldn't we embrace what Scripture states rather than what it doesn't? What Christianity has so boldly embraced (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) that echos the exact words Scripture states?

Could one be correct if they stated "Jesus was not God" because they found a verse that calls him a man (and remember: your aplogetic permits the word "ONLY" to be inserted into texts)? Never mind the texts that teach He is God (fewer and less clear than the ones that state He died for all).... just put an "ONLY" in front of "man" and there goes Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Church Councils, the Creeds and the faith of Christians for 2000 years.

Just something to think about.....




.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave
@atpollard

Let's use another example.....

Was Jesus born in BETHLEHEM?

Well, the following Scriptures verbatim, literally, word-for-word STATE so.
Matthew 2:1 "Jesus was born in Bethlehem"

There's another verse where certain persons state that was the prophecy (but don't actually state that it happened)
Matthew 2:5

We have another verse that states Mary and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem but it doesn't actually state Jesus was born there
Luke 2:4 "To the City of David, which is called Bethlehem."

And another that while not exactly saying Jesus was born in Bethlehem, it does say that's where the shepherds went to worship him.
Luke 2:15

SO....

1. We have one verse that specifically, verbatim states Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
2. We have three that allude to that but don't actually state it (Matthew 2:5, Luke 2:4, Luke 2:15)

And this has been viewed by all Christians as true (no spin, no denial).
No Church Council has affirmed this.

Do you accept that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Based on the the clear words of one text and 3 others that support that? That and the universal belief of the whole church (the Body of Christ) over the many centuries?

Do you think that it's good to accept that Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

Let's say some individual.... 1600 years later.... dogmatically insists that Jesus was NOT born in Bethlehem but in Rome? His opinion. Do you think it might be necessary for him to find a verse that states, "Jesus was born in Rome" or at least "Jesus was not born in Bethehem?"


Well....

We have at least five different Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, literally, in black-and-white words on the page STATES, proclaims and announces that Jesus died for all, for everyone. And several others that support that. FAR better, MUCH stronger support for this than for Jesus born in Bethlehem.

And this has been supported by the Church Fathers, by an Ecumenical Church Council, by John Calvin (founder of Reformed protestantism) and is taught by the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church, by many Baptist churches and well beyond. And has been believed by Christians for 2000 years.

Do you think that theorist 1500 years later should have at least one verse that specifically states "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some?" Shouldn't we embrace what Scripture states rather than what it doesn't? What Christianity has so boldly embraced (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) that echos the exact words Scripture states?

Could one be correct if they stated "Jesus was not God" because they found a verse that calls him a man (and remember: your aplogetic permits the word "ONLY" to be inserted into texts)? Never mind the texts that teach He is God (fewer and less clear than the ones that state He died for all).... just put an "ONLY" in front of "man" and there goes Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Church Councils, the Creeds and the faith of Christians for 2000 years.

Just something to think about.....




.

Did Jesus die for these? “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)

 

[atpollard]

Actually, he says that he is God in a number of verses and in different ways. In addition, he does not reject the claim when another person says it about him. And then also, he does things that only a god can do.

If he were not God but did all of this anyway, he would be the worst kind of charlatan, a complete phony, in which case he would not be worthy of even the respect that might be accorded a special creation of God, or even a prophet, who is not actually God himself.

Some have settled on thinking of Jesus as some sort of human-divine hybrid. There are people who are reluctant to admit of Jesus being God and want to believe he was instead something like I've just described. In so doing, they try to carve out a "happy medium" between considering him to be God and him being just an ordinary mortal. Dave's view is like that.

However, in more ways than the average person realizes, Jesus proclaimed that he was indeed God.

Thank you for completely missing the original point and refusing to provide SCRIPTURE when asked to back up your claim with SCRIPTURE.

I was being accused of “reading between the lines” with the assumed implication that anything not stated “verbatim” (as my close, personal friend is so fond of demanding) does not count.

You failed to provide a verse that stated verbatim from the lips of Jesus “I am God”, therefore, by Lamb’s criteria you must read between the lines (which is invalid) and by the “verbatim” criteria, Jesus must not be God.

I was attempting to point out the folly of the metric they had chosen for establishing “truth”.
You have just jumped in to make claims that you refused to support. You claimed Jesus said “I am God” and offered no verse in support.

 

[atpollard]

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 KJV

Thank you for responding to a request for a verse with a verse.
I would accept it, but you fail Lamb and Josiah’s verbatim test.
(Shame on you for reading between the lines)

 

[atpollard]

@1689Dave
@atpollard

Let's use another example.....

No thank you.
Let’s not.
You are not interested in honest discussion, so I am not interested in wasting time reading what you post on the subject. I only responded at all, because you specifically addressed it to me.

[Talk to the hand.]

 

[atpollard]

Here are some of the verses in which Jesus makes the claim:
John 5:18, 23
John 8:58 (using the name reserved for God among the Jews)
Revelation 1:17
Hebrews 1:8
Matthew 22:43-44

And here are some of the verses in which Jesus accepts being acclaimed as God by other people.
Matthew 8:2
Matthew 9:18)
Matthew 15:25
Matthew 20:20
Mark 5:6

Finally, here is something that puts it into perspective for the ordinary student of the Bible:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." --C.S.Lewis

I was surprised to learn that you were unaware of the mountain of Scriptural evidence that indicates that Jesus was God Incarnate (as all the ancient Christian Creeds also affirm) and claimed it. Or was that not the case when you challenged me, and you were just asking for the listing of verses for the benefit of other readers?

Rather than check ALL of them, I selected one at random (Matthew 8:2). You are incorrect according the Thayer’s Greek Lexicon … “Lord” in that verse was not a claim of deity.

In any event, the criteria set by others is “verbatim” and the request was for a claim from the lips of Jesus “I am God”. This is what you said was in the Bible. Do any of those verse come close to that?

 

[Albion]

Thank you for completely missing the original point

I don't believe that I did. You wanted to know if Christ claimed to be God and I showed from the word of God that the answer is not only "yes" but he claimed it and agreed with other people when they said it of him--many times over. And I gave you the specific Bible verses that you must have been unaware of.

and refusing to provide SCRIPTURE when asked to back up your claim with SCRIPTURE.

LOL How many did you want? How many do you NEED? See post #24 for the listing of verses I gave you.

I was being accused of “reading between the lines” with the assumed implication that anything not stated “verbatim” (as my close, personal friend is so fond of demanding) does not count.

Your feelings were hurt, huh? Well, that has nothing to do with the issue itself, does it? And, "yes" Christ did indeed claim to be God.

I was attempting to point out the folly of the metric they had chosen for establishing “truth”.

Ah, OK, but I don't think the best way to "get even" is to demand a bunch of Bible verses and then pretend that they don't say what they obviously do.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for responding to a request for a verse with a verse.
I would accept it, but you fail Lamb and Josiah’s verbatim test.
(Shame on you for reading between the lines)

To help me in your ignorance and for the sake of clarity, do you have some objection against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

 

[atpollard]

To help me in your ignorance and for the sake of clarity, do you have some objection against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

No.
“I would accept it, but you fail Lamb and Josiah’s verbatim test.”

 

[atpollard]

LOL How many did you want? How many do you NEED? See post #24 for the listing of verses I gave you.

See post #21 for the post I responded to where you gave NO VERSES.
See post #30 to my response to your later post #24.
I find no humor in your deliberate obfuscation, so I will be wasting no more time on unproductive topics.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No.
“I would accept it, but you fail Lamb and Josiah’s verbatim test.”

I do not care if I fail their test. Of greater concern to me is to be faithful to God.

 

[Albion]

See post #21 for the post I responded to where you gave NO VERSES.

I mean, that's just absurd.

There is a whole list of verses in that post. And shame on you for asking me to gather that material for you, knowing that you intended so say "there are no such verses" in any eventuality.

But I suspect that your little game didn't go as well as you hoped, so you've got to deny that what I gave you in response even exists!

And part of that game, which I am sorry to have to point out, is to maintain that unless Jesus is quoted as saying exactly the words that you put together--in English, which I do not think was the language he was speaking to the Hebrews--in exactly the same order...then, none of it counts.

And of course, no synonym for "God" is acceptable to you even if every Bible scholar knows full well that a number of other words mean exactly the same thing to Jesus' hearers. He could not, for instance, have uttered the words "I AM' without being understood to be saying that he was God. That's because calling himself by the divine name that the Hebrews would not utter was unthinkable. But also unmistakable in its meaning.

What's more, he would not be anything but a routine religious huckster if he had allowed SOMEONE ELSE to call him God and not reprimand that person in reply. So, is that what you think Jesus was?

Then, too, there are a number of other proofs that you were given. I even sorted them for you.

 

[Josiah]

No.
“I would accept it, but you fail Lamb and Josiah’s verbatim test.”

@atpollard


See post 25


Friend, IF (big word there, lol) IF you had several Scriptures that stated, "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some" then you might have a case in arguing that perhaps the several that verbatim state, "Jesus died for all" might need to be mitigated. Perhaps it's a Law/Gospel issue or a Justification/Sanctification issue, maybe even simply a mystery how they can both be true. But that's not the case, is it? We have some Scriptures that state "Jesus died for all" and none that state otherwise.

Friend, you have a point: There is actually LESS in Scripture to document the divinity of Jesus than there is to document that Jesus died for all. And likely more Christians (past and present) who question the divinity of Jesus than question that He died for all. Okay, you have a point. I just don't see how that strengthens your argument that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some.



.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard


See post 25

See post #29.

 

[atpollard]

I mean, that's just absurd.

There is a whole list of verses in that post.

You are annoying. Please underline the verses in post #21 (quoted below):

Actually, he says that he is God in a number of verses and in different ways. In addition, he does not reject the claim when another person says it about him. And then also, he does things that only a god can do.

If he were not God but did all of this anyway, he would be the worst kind of charlatan, a complete phony, in which case he would not be worthy of even the respect that might be accorded a special creation of God, or even a prophet, who is not actually God himself.

Some have settled on thinking of Jesus as some sort of human-divine hybrid. There are people who are reluctant to admit of Jesus being God and want to believe he was instead something like I've just described. In so doing, they try to carve out a "happy medium" between considering him to be God and him being just an ordinary mortal. Dave's view is like that.

However, in more ways than the average person realizes, Jesus proclaimed that he was indeed God.

This is the post that I responded to when I accused you of not providing a verse when asked to provide a verse.
(now I just want to leave this stupid discussion full of false accusations.)

 

[Albion]

You are annoying.

And what do you imagine it is when I list a whole bunch of verses in response to your erroneous claim...and you then answer back, saying to me that:
(1) I didn't offer you any verses (!)...and, what's more
(2) you didn't read the ones that I posted!?

That doesn't even make sense in addition to being "annoying."