Not permitting a woman to teach...does that include hymn writing?

[Lamb]

For those who believe that women should not be pastors because of the following verse: 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Does that also apply to women who write hymns for congregations? Why or why not?

 

[Josiah]

For those who believe that women should not be pastors because of the following verse: 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Does that also apply to women who write hymns for congregations? Why or why not?

Here's how I understand this....

There are two "camps" here.

1. Historically (at least since the 10th Century or so), there have been those who have held that women are not to "teach" in pretty much any fashion. SOME have gone so far as to not allow women to participate in the worship service, but to sit in the back, take care of the kids, and just listen. SOME have simply not allowed "teaching" and thus women could not sing in the choir (boys sang the Saprano and Alto parts - a practice still found in some Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican circles), and I'm sure not write hymns. In the LCMS (and maybe still in WELS) women were not to serve as Lectors, not even just READING the lectionary). This sometimes extended beyond the worship service, too. In the LCMS, often women were not allowed to teach boys after puberty, teen classes either needed to be taught by men or segregated by gender with women only teaching teen girls. I'm not sure when either of these informal policies changed in the LCMS (long before my time!). Until fairly recently in the LCMS (and perhaps still in WELS) women could not serve on the church council or vote at Voter's Assembly/Congregation meetings. So, it IS a policy of women being silent and not having authority - but not evenly, consistenly applied, and it's a policy largely abandoned today in the LCMS. BTW, I recall in English class in college, that former days, women writers often used male names and simply did not reveal that they were women.

2. But there has been another tradition. That this applies only to the pastor and only to the worship service. Essentially, women are not to preach or lead the liturgy. Otherwise, they can fully participate in the worship service (even as a soloist or lector) and serve in any capacity of the church. And this doens't apply at all outside the worship service. The LCMS, I think, has essentially moved into this camp. This is now the case in the Catholic Church, too.

 

[1689Dave]

For those who believe that women should not be pastors because of the following verse: 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Does that also apply to women who write hymns for congregations? Why or why not?

I think the false doctrine that plagues the churches today might have been from the women Sunday School teachers in part. There is nothing more deceptive than modern-day hymnology.

 

[Albion]

For those who believe that women should not be pastors because of the following verse: 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Not for that reason alone.

In fact, that verse is one of the weaker pieces of evidence that might indicate Christ's intention to have male pastors. That's because it is Paul saying that HE, PAUL, does not permit women to do what he refers to, which was to disrupt the church meetings by getting into vocal disagreements with other women. Also, the declaration may have been meant to apply only temporarily and only for that one congregation at Ephesus.

In addition, we have the following to consider:
1. Christ had close friends who were women, but he called twelve men and only men to be his Apostles and, therefore, the first bishops of his Church.

2. There is no record in Scripture or elsewhere showing that any women was a deacon, presbyter, or elder in the Apostolic Church of the first century.

3. The Scriptural evidence that would support the concept of women pastors is totally lacking. The best that proponents of women's ordination can come up with are verses that say God loves everyone or that there is no difference in God's eyes between one group of people and another, etc.

Clearly, those verses in the latter category fall short since it is undeniable that God did choose certain people and types of people to occupy certain roles in society and/or his Church. For example, it was the Jewish people who were selected to be his chosen people. Also, the Old Testament priests were selected from one tribe only.

Does that also apply to women who write hymns for congregations? Why or why not?

I'd say "no," to this, but I really hadn't thought of the issue previously.

I checked with The Lutheran Hymnal and found a number of women hymn writers listed there, including Henriette Louise von Hayn, and Julia Anne Elliott. Apparently, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod had an opinion about the matter when it published its hymnal in 1941.

 

[Josiah]

Not for that reason alone.

In fact, that verse is one of the weaker pieces of evidence that might indicate Christ's intention to have male pastors. That's because it is Paul saying that HE, PAUL, does not permit women to do what he refers to, which was to disrupt the church meetings by getting into vocal disagreements with other women. Also, the declaration may have been meant to apply only temporarily and only for that one congregation at Ephesus.

In addition, we have the following to consider:
1. Christ had close friends who were women, but he called twelve men and only men to be his Apostles and, therefore, the first bishops of his Church.

2. There is no record in Scripture or elsewhere showing that any women was a deacon, presbyter, or elder in the Apostolic Church of the first century.

3. The Scriptural evidence that would support the concept of women pastors is totally lacking. The best that proponents of women's ordination can come up with are verses that say God loves everyone or that there is no difference in God's eyes between one group of people and another, etc. Clearly, those verses fall short since it is undeniable that God did choose certain people and types of people to occupy certain roles in society and/or his Church. For example, it was the Jewish people who were selected to be his chosen people. Also, the Old Testament priests were selected from one tribe only.


I'd say "no," to this, but I really hadn't thought of the issue previously.

I checked with The Lutheran Hymnal and found a number of women hymn writers listed there, including Henriette Louise von Hayn, and Julia Anne Elliott. Apparently, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod had an opinion about the matter when it published its hymnal in 1941.

To the issue of female pastors....

I largely agree with Albion on this. On the basis of Scripture ALONE, I don't think the "male only" side has a solid case; it IS stronger than the "women are okay" side but kind of weak nonetheless.

What makes this issue clear for me is Tradition. How has Christianity interpreted and applied these Scriptures, how has 2000 years of Christianity viewed this issue. And while I understand this is not absolute, it has been the understanding that the Pastoral Office is limited to males. As I understand it, there were not female pastors before the 1950's... and even today, it's far from common.

But of course, that's a separate issue than what women can do and not do.




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[1689Dave]

Jesus and the Apostles were real men without peers. Sunday school boys won't get there hangin' out with the ladies. Lots of effeminate "preachers" you see these days.

 

[Albion]

To the issue of female pastors....

I largely agree with Albion on this. On the basis of Scripture ALONE, I don't think the "male only" side has a solid case; it IS stronger than the "women are okay" side but kind of weak nonetheless.

What makes this issue clear for me is Tradition. How has Christianity interpreted and applied these Scriptures, how has 2000 years of Christianity viewed this issue. And while I understand this is not absolute, it has been the understanding that the Pastoral Office is limited to males. As I understand it, there were not female pastors before the 1950's... and even today, it's far from common.

But of course, that's a separate issue than what women can do and not do.
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Tradition does stand 100% on the side of an all-male clergy. And Tradition, properly understood, is important or else all that we attribute to the Apostles and the correctness of the beliefs of the first churches goes out the window.

In that case, we'd have to say that Christ founded his Church, as he said, but it never got off the ground. That's much different from thinking that the Church which was once correct went astray at a later time.

But I believe that Scripture does make a strong case. It identifies an all-male, handpicked leadership of Christ's Apostles. That was Christ's own design. And it mentions not a single woman pastor in all that is reported in Scripture about the first churches and the letters written to them, etc. There are qualifications given in the New Testament for a person to be made a deacon or a bishop, and those qualifications are explicitly male. So that looks like a solid case being made, especially when there is a complete absence of any contrary evidence to be found in the New Testament.

 

[Josiah]

Tradition does stand 100% on the side of an all-male clergy.

I am aware of that; rare is a tradition that is 100% absolute. But that IS where Tradition has and still does largely stand.

But I believe that Scripture does make a strong case. It identifies an all-male, handpicked leadership of Christ's Apostles. That was Christ's own design. And it mentions not a single woman pastor in all that is reported in Scripture about the first churches and the letters written to them, etc. There are qualifications given in the New Testament for a person to be made a deacon or a bishop, and those qualifications are explicitly male. So that looks like a solid case being made, especially when there is a complete absence of any contrary evidence to be found in the New Testament.

Your point is understood and appreciated. As I noted, the "male only" side does (IMO) have the much stronger case.

But to the issue here, I'm not sure all that carries over to FUNCTIONS that might also be found in the Pastoral Office. That, I think, is the sense of this thread.


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[Albion]

But to the issue here, I'm not sure all that carries over to FUNCTIONS that might also be found in the Pastoral Office. That, I think, is the sense of this thread.


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You'll have to explain that one for me. I cannot imagine excusing an unauthorized person who takes or is given the responsibilities of a pastor. But if you are thinking specifically about "teaching" in the broad sense and the fact that some women in some denominations do teach under certain circumstances, that's a matter that requires a separate treatment IMO.

The Original Post here referred to people in churches which do not ordain women and asked them to comment on the idea that this prohibition should or should not carry over to such an activity as hymn writing.

Of course, neither you, nor I, nor Lamb can reply to the question, strictly speaking, since all of the churches to which we belong have all-male clergy and consider that to be in accord with Scripture.

But, as usual, when the targeted contributors are slow to respond, that leads to other people here who have an opinion giving it in the interest of seeing the discussion accomplish something.

 

[Josiah]

You'll have to explain that one for me. I cannot imagine excusing an unauthorized person who takes or is given the responsibilities of a pastor.

For example, sharing the Word (say in a song) or the Reading of Scripture or a few dozen other things, things done by the Pastoral Office but functions not necessarily limited to those in that office.

But if you are thinking specifically about "teaching" in the broad sense and the fact that some women in some denominations do teach under certain circumstances, that's a matter that requires a separate treatment IMO.

As I tried to indicate.

I was responding to post #4 where pastors are mentioned in several places. I agree, a bit of a tangent. Forgive.



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[grumix8]

Women can preach the word and did preach in temples. psalm 68:11 standard bible version not kingjames version says The lord comamnds that women give good news. if you read it you will find that back in those days the way people knew of the existence of Israel was thru songs that were made people who passed thru Israel for commerce heard those songs and they told other people of the feats of Israel. Remember those times talking and sayiing hi was common like we think in those times the point of the sword, eye for an eye, the strong will rule did't let poor common people womena nd men to just go to one place and say hi and not being stabbed on the wya or kiled in the town by people. it is common in those times the violence. No such thing they had rights or just come up and be welcomed warring tribes and the first time to see someon clse to town they come and hold you ransom.

Only commerce and diplomacy could let you go to town and town people knowing you and letting you passed no harder times that is why singing was the way people know what happen in towns and exploits thruout the land. Women sanged and in those was the way people heard the gospel and stories of saul killed his hundres but david killed his thousands. Know the psalms in the bible was the way that womena nd men sanged in the temple of solomon and before women sanged at the tabernacle when moses had the ark they sanged the song of Miriam, victory song of hebrew people. In psalms God talks to Israel and says that young men and women to sing praise to him in the temple he doesn't asks it he orders it -_-. Know that in exodus their is verse says women helped build the tabernacle and in the tabernacle they did service cleanig, helping the people inside, now that you know that women sanged with men inside the temple and priest of the temple had thier daughters and sons sing in the temple to worship God day on. Just to show they did sing in the temple and thus preach.

 

[grumix8]

See that in the old days of the testament of God women sanged and it is preaching the message and word of God, did Jesus said to women to prach the good news and tell what he said to everyone. Some Christians say when 12 disciples were with jeses he was only refering to thema s the only one's to preach ? nope Jesusas siad to the multitude and his followers and women were aong them to repeat and tell everyone what he said.

Matthew 16:15-20, Luke 9:23-27, and Luke 24:44 said it Jesus was talking to women too to give the word and gospel to everyone and that's teaching so that's also preaching like singing in the old times.

Women prophets, women queens, women apostles do exist and are in the bible. New testamen says about women apostle did help the erly church more thinsg copming know that know more made cartoons explainig all this and have covered the old testamen and new testament here where I got my information


https://www.christianthinktank.com/femalex.html

Here A good angel made summary of all things women had good, bad and neutral things in the bible with bible verses to back it up. check it please know that thier were more things women from the tribe of Efrain who build 3 cities before the 10 commandments was in and was cheif of them. Sage like leader like Deborah was that women, another women who had to cut head of person in A city to save it, women was prophet but had no name and was forgotten by time, Esther who saved her people, thier are women that people do not read and don't realize they existed were writtne in the bible and had equal status or higher in the law of moses.

Know that God did favor women and gave higher status before thelaw, in the law and after the law know that women bore A god and that is jesus mother A feat only women have and not men.

 

[grumix8]

Here we wills tudy the words in greek.

1 Tim. 2:11-12, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence

this is a home setting and not a church setting.. which is a reflection on husbands in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34 " Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." 1 Corinthians 14:35 " And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

please understand, the apostle was not even speakling to women/wives as in 1 Tim. 2:11-12, all of this was directed at men/husband.

for the terms women, both in 1 Tim. 2:11-12, and 1 Corinthians 14:34 ... is uinderstood as WIVES"/Wife. for it is the greek word,
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

definition # 2 clear up the matter.

 

[grumix8]

that is not true, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 " And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

understand, the term "set" here is ORDAIN, it is the greek word,
G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down

there it is, the KJV can translate the word as, "ordain" . example of it's use. 1 Timothy 2:7 " Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."

 

[grumix8]

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.

another MISTAKE, is not another word for BISHOP is Pastor? yes, was not Paul a Bishop/Pastor? yes, did Paul have a wife? so do 1Ti 3:2 apply to Paul?

where people make the mistake at is in the scripture itself. 1 Timothy 3:1 " This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." notice "A" man... not any man in general but a specify man..... one who's married. if the verses would have said, "if any man", then that would include married and unmarried...... as in the apostle Paul case, understand now?

understand, as in 1 Corinthians 14:34, and in 1 Timothy 2:12, the apostle was addressing ... "MARRIED MEN", this was a home setting response.

a Revelation, what the difference...
scripture #1. 1 Timothy 2:12 " But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Scripture #2, Titus 2:3 " The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;" Titus 2:4 " That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,"

did you see the difference?

 

[grumix8]

Women as Bishop,
scripture. Romans 16:3 " Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:"
this term "Helpers" is the Greek word,
G4904 συνεργός sunergos (sïn-er-ğos') adj.
a co-laborer, i.e. coadjutor.
[from a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041]
KJV: companion in labour, (fellow-)helper(-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow
Root(s): G4862, G2041

if anyone is catholic I'm sure you know this term, "coadjutor". it means a bishop appointed to assist a diocesan bishop, and often also designated as his successor.

well, well, well we have two BISHOP right here in Romans 16:3 " Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:"

the woman Priscilla, and her husband are both BISHOPS, but the big revelation is our sister Phebe is Rome first Bishop/Pastor. I bet you that's not in the early church fathers letters in Rome..... (smile). BUT IT'S IN THE BIBLE,

the bible is full of women preachers, teachers, and Bishops, just look for them.

 

[grumix8]

I ask we go thoroughly in this discussion and find that there is evidence that women did particpate in preaching in the old testament and new. And this talk fairly let me show you with bible verse. Remember one thing people before we continue Does paul the apostle have more authority than Jesus ? Jesus told in A multitude with women to tell them to preacht he word to all and deliver his good news ! Paul cannot go agaisnt Jesus is this about Paul or God who came like men and had the authority to tell women to preach his word ? I ask you and Paul also let them help in the church apostle women exist and their were women who lead churches in the new testament ? Yes.

 

[Albion]

Women as Bishop,
scripture. Romans 16:3 " Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:"
this term "Helpers" is the Greek word,
G4904 συνεργός sunergos (sïn-er-ğos') adj.

It doesn't mean bishop, however, not as the New Testament uses the word.

well, well, well we have two BISHOP right here in Romans 16:3 " Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:"

They, like other women in the early church who convened congregations, delivered messages, prepared women for baptism when that was done in the nude, and so on, were church workers and very important. None were bishops or priests, however.

 

[grumix8]

wait, wait, and wait were just starting -_-.

Let's put to an end this notion that women cannot speak in the Church per 1Cor 14:34. a good bible student is taught of the Holy Spirit. let's examine the context of the Scriptures.
1Cor 14:31 "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted".
If women cannot speak/prophesy in Church, then that’s a direct contradiction of Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: ONE CAN MAKE A CROSS REFERENCE OF THE TWO VERSES. ABOVE
Right here, this is proof that women can “SPEAK”/prophesy in the Church. for the term prophesy means to "SPEAK".
G4395 προφητεύω propheteuo (pro-fee-tev'-ō) v.
to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office.
[from G4396]
KJV: prophesy

if God poured out his Spirit on the daughters, which are Females/Women then we need to correctly understand verse 34, below which the apostles was never speaking to any woman/Female.

as well as
1Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
which is a HOME SETTING

1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

all of these scriptures are speaking of MATRRIED Women ..... ONLY. and what their Husband responsibility was according to the law.

and neither verse was directed at any woman at all. we need to understand the context.

just as Joel 2:28 clearly permits WOMEN to Speak/prophesy in church. one of the first women to do so was Anna.
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luke 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

this woman was in the TEMPLE "Speaking" of the Lord Jesus, and his redemption. for the term "Speak" is the same in Prophecy,
G2980 λαλέω laleo (lal-ye'-ō) v.
to talk, i.e. speak words.
[a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb]
KJV: preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter

and prophesy means,
G4395 προφητεύω propheteuo (pro-fee-tev'-ō) v.
to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office.
[from G4396]
KJV: prophesy

 

[grumix8]

ERROR, the apostle was not even speaking to women, but to their HUSBANDS. for the term "WOMEN" is
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

how do we know it's wives and and not women in general, here's why. 1Cor 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

what kind of Woman have a "husband?" answer, a married one. and notice it said husband(s) with the "s" at the end. the apostle was speaking about MARRIED WOMEN. not ALL WOMEN in the CHURCH. never assume anything tread the context.