Crux Theologorum: Why are Some Saved but Not Others?

[Josiah]

Crux Theologorum: The Theologians’ Cross​

​

This video is 30 minutes long, but VERY helpful....

In perhaps half of modern Protestantism, there is a debate. It's between two radically opposed voices.

1. Calvinism. Actually, this comes more from a few radical followers of Jesus who took Calvin's view to "the logical conclusion." TULIP is the "logical extension" of Calvin's thought.
2. Arminius. Leaning a bit on Pelagianism, he stressed free will.

Both of these "schools" tried to develop a LOGICAL explanation to issues in justification, to create a LOGICAL "answer" to questions people ask about justification. And both succeeded! The problem is: Both rest on denying a lot of Scriptures and make for a complete lack of assurance, a "terror of the conscience."

In a lot of Protestant websites and seminaries, this DEBATE among these two opposite views is enormous! Probably 95% on the Arminianism side, maybe 5% on the Calvinist side. All it broken into slogans parroted endlessly with no hope - or desire - for resolution. It just goes on and on... with the same exact arguments repeated endlessly, flying past each other. And often with a lot of logical fallacies, as well as essential denials of what the Bible obviously says.

It's entirely about LOGIC. Interesting, because until the 16th century, theologians did not speak so much of "doctrine" but of Mysteries.... they saw themselves as "stewards of the mysteries of God".... things not necessarily "logical" to our fallen, sinful brain, maybe not "neat and clean" but true simply because the words in the Bible are true. All of them. It was okay to say, "I can't really wrap my puny brain around this - but that's okay, God knows more than I do." The Mystery of the Trinity, the Mystery of the Two Natures and a LOT more are all based on this willingness to embrace that God's truth doesn't need to make sense to us, it just needs to be true.

The DEBATE really didn't start in the late 16th Century among some Protestants.... the debate happened earlier (Augustine, Pelagius, etc.) but the church largely rejected both. The enormous debate between these two groups quickly got more and more extreme, each developing arguments against the other, each getting more and more extreme. Until what we see today.




Continues in post #2....



.

 

[Josiah]

Continues from post 1...

1. We know that people are saved by God’s grace alone through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We further know that such saving faith is something that we cannot produce in ourselves; rather it is a gift of God worked in sinful and spiritually dead man by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the Word.​

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ … [sent me] to preach the gospel — not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

2. We know that God earnestly desires all people to be saved.​

Ezekiel 18:30b-32 “Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

3. We know that those who are saved were chosen by God in Christ from before the creation of the world.​

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us … – not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
Romans 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4. We know that those who are not saved have only themselves to blame.​

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your childrentogether, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, `As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
Proverbs 1:24 But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand.


Continues in post # 3....



.

 

[Josiah]

Continues from post 2...

Here’s the big question: How do we reconcile these statements? If God wants everyone to be saved, and people are saved only by the power and grace of God, why isn’t everyone saved?​

This is the Crux Theologorum: Why are some saved and not others?​

Two popular "logical" attempts to answer this question. They are:​

1. Calvinism: which says, “Because God chose some to be saved and others to be damned. Jesus Christ died only for the chosen or ‘elect’. If you are one of the elect, you will eventually come to faith in the Gospel and be saved; if not, there is nothing you can do. God glorifies himself by condemning most people (and odds are, that's you) to Hell.” (this is the historic position of Reformed churches such as Presbyterian and Reformed church, as well as some Baptists).

2. Arminianism: which says, “Because it’s a question of free will. Every dead, unregerate person has the capacity to choose to believe in Jesus and follow him or not to. Those who choose Jesus are saved. Those who do not are damned.” (This is the historic position of Methodist and Pentecostal Churches, and the present position of most US Evangelical, Baptist and nondenominational churches.)


++ The problem with both positions is that they deny clear Scripture.

Both have to declare some Scriptures to be wrong. The Calvinist denies that God really wants all to be saved. The Arminian makes a fallen human’s decision to believe in Jesus and follow him the final factor, denying that man is dead in sin and that salvation is entirely the work of God. Both positions, unfortunately, take the focus of faith off the Gospel of Christ.


++ And the problem with both positions create a "terror of the conscience" (as Luther put it).


1. The Calvinist really doesn’t need to trust in the Gospel. His focus is taken off what Jesus did; and the big questions in his life are, “Did God choose me?” and “Am I one of the elect?”

2. The Arminian really doesn’t need to trust the Gospel either. His focus is also taken off what Jesus did; and the big question in his life is, “Did I decide for Jesus?” or “Did I choose Jesus?” Or, stated another way, “Did I do my part?”

And here’s where the failure of both Calvinism and Arminianism is revealed: sooner or later every Christian wants to find some kind of assurance of their salvation. Eventually every Christian will ask, “How do I know for sure that I am saved? How can I tell?” And here’s the problem: neither the Calvinist nor the Arminian can simply look to the cross and their Savior for assurance. Why not? Because the work of Christ on the cross for the Calvinist is only helpful if he’s one of the elect – and he doesn’t know that for sure. Likewise, the work of Christ on the cross is helpful for the Arminian only if he properly decides for Jesus and chooses to follow him with sufficient faithfulness – and of that he can never be quite certain. So, since neither can look to Christ for assurance, they must look someplace else. And oddly enough, both will end up looking in the same place. Both know from the Scripture that people are saved by faith, and that saving faith produces good works. So they end up looking for the proof of their election (Calvinist) or the sincerity of their decision for Jesus (Arminian) in their own lives. The question then becomes: “Do I see ample evidence of the fruits of faith in my life?” Or, stated another way, “Am I doing enough good works to confirm my faith?”

Unfortunately, there’s no comfort in EITHER of these. Such an examination will always lead either to despair or to self-righteousness. If they’re honest with themselves, they will see lots of sin, and few and flawed good works; and so be convinced of their damnation. If they’re not so honest, they may close their eyes to their many sins and deceive themselves into believing that they’re doing well enough in their Christian walk, and smugly assume they’re saved. Notice that neither is looking to Christ for assurance of their salvation. Both have made the assurance of saving faith a question of their subjective evaluations of their own works.


BOTH create a "logical" answer... but they are both unbiblical and ultimately terrifying.

How do we resolve this dilemma? We don’t. Why not? Because Scripture does not give us the answer. Yup, it's exactly that simple. We let what God says simply stand. And believe.​

So...​

If a person is saved, it is entirely the work of God.​

If a person is not saved, it is entirely the fault of the person.​

But someone will protest: “That doesn’t make sense!” To which we respond, “That’s right, it doesn’t make sense—at least not to us. But then, it doesn’t have to make sense to us to be true." We reject that if we can't wrap our puny, fallen, limited brains about something, then it can't be true and God must be wrong in what He verbatim states in Scripture.​

Isaiah 40:13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?
Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Romans 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

​

We come to the same point the early church did: There are some questions our human brains ask, but we simply don't have an answer that our puny brains understand. It's MYSTERY. God calls us to be "stewards of the mysteries of God. He doesn't not call us to deny a lot of what He said so that God seems to be logical and so that He agrees with me.

Fortunately for us, assurance of salvation is found only in the objective Gospel. By leaving the question unresolved to human satisfaction, God forces our faith to rest on what Christ has done for us. So, when struggling with the question, “How do I know for sure that I am saved?” we can boldly answer, “Because Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose again for my justification.” Letting the paradox stand directs the doubting soul to Christ and his work alone where it belongs.

Finally, it’s worth noting one more faulty attempt to resolve this paradox that is sometimes put forth by well intentioned but erring teachers. It’s an attempt to synthesize the election of God from eternity past with the so-called “free will” of the Arminian. The basic notion is that God foresees those who will one day come to faith in Jesus by the exercise of their free will, and in view of their proper choice he elects to save them. Theologians who support this view sometimes use the Latin phrase and say that God elects people intuitu fidei; that is, “in view of their faith”. The mistakes inherent in this idea are fairly obvious. First, it’s clear that such “election” on God’s part is not really election at all. He is not choosing or foreordaining anything. He is simply ratifying and supporting the decision of the individual that he foresees will be made in time. Secondly, salvation in this scheme is still entirely left up to a fallen, spiritually dead person’s choice. Therefore all the errors and subsequent problems related to Arminianism remain.

It is, of course, very tempting to seek some resolution to the paradox that is the Crux Theologorum. But the simple facts are these: God has not revealed to us the answer to the question. And all human attempts to resolve the problem must first deny part of what God has plainly revealed, and their answers ultimately direct a person’s faith away from the work of Jesus on the cross to something else. Therefore it is best to simply accept what God has said about this issue, trust in Christ alone, and leave the resolution of what seems to be a contradiction to the limited mind of man to God who is all wise.


Continues in post #4


.

 

[Josiah]

Some comments...


1.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some comments...


1.

No comments yet?

1. The video has bad sound quality ...
2. Persons A and B are kind of inert
3. I am sure this could be said in less than 32 minutes.

That's three comments

Why did the student body laugh when "hell" was said to be the destination of person B?

 

[1689Dave]

Why did God create the universe and all therein? It's not as many imagine. Paul says in a couple of places that God makes himself known to his creation through Adam's sin. Sin displays God's wrath. It also displays his mercy. Because of sin we see his sovereignty. We also see the extent of his love in saving some he hates because of their wickedness. If we had lovable qualities, we would share in his glory. This is why universal atonement is so vial. We save ourselves through works of self-righteousness robbing him of his glory.

 

[Josiah]

. This is why universal atonement is so vial. We save ourselves through works of self-righteousness robbing him of his glory.

Absurd.

Universal Atonement is the echo of what the Bible SO often, clearly, undeniably, verbatim, in black-and-white words God put on the page STATES. Jesus died for all. Those 4 words: Jesus died for all. It is beyond silly to state the doctrine teaching that each person saves himself or that each person must have self-righteousness. Try to read. Focus. Look at the words. JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Now, underline for mes "we save ourselves" and the words "self-righteousness" and the words "rob God of his glory." Can you read?

Your problem, it seems, is not only your unwillingness to actually read Scripture and your felt-need to insist God is so wrong and truth is the exact opposite of what He repeatedly states, but that your entire apologetic is directed to ARMENIANISTS (all of TULIP is) and no one here is that, so your assumptions about our beliefs are wrong, you have to force us into a view we don't have in order to use the tired, old, apologetics AGAINST ARMINIANISTS with all the non-existent Scriptures and logical fallacies of that apologetic. ARMINIANISTS (those illogical radical Calvinists believe) hold that they "save themselves" but that doesn't work here, none of us believe that... and if you are willing to actually READ then you'll know what everyone else does: JESUS DIED FOR ALL is not "We save ourselves through works of self-righteousness robbing him of his glory." IN FACT (if you can read) none of those 13 words you insist is the doctrine even exist in the doctrine! Trying reading it. It's just 4 words, words my 4 year old can read and understand: Jesus died for all.



.

 

[1689Dave]

Absurd.

Universal Atonement is the echo of what the Bible SO often, clearly, undeniably, verbatim, in black-and-white words God put on the page STATES. Jesus died for all. Those 4 words: Jesus died for all. It is beyond silly to state the doctrine teaching that each person saves himself or that each person must have self-righteousness. Try to read. Focus. Look at the words. JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Now, underline for mes "we save ourselves" and the words "self-righteousness" and the words "rob God of his glory." Can you read?

Your problem, it seems, is not only your unwillingness to actually read Scripture and your felt-need to insist God is so wrong and truth is the exact opposite of what He repeatedly states, but that your entire apologetic is directed to ARMENIANISTS (all of TULIP is) and no one here is that, so your assumptions about our beliefs are wrong, you have to force us into a view we don't have in order to use the tired, old, apologetics AGAINST ARMINIANISTS with all the non-existent Scriptures and logical fallacies of that apologetic. ARMINIANISTS (those illogical radical Calvinists believe) hold that they "save themselves" but that doesn't work here, none of us believe that... and if you are willing to actually READ then you'll know what everyone else does: JESUS DIED FOR ALL is not "We save ourselves through works of self-righteousness robbing him of his glory." IN FACT (if you can read) none of those 13 words you insist is the doctrine even exist in the doctrine! Trying reading it. It's just 4 words, words my 4 year old can read and understand: Jesus died for all.



.

Atonement = reconcile. You are misusing the term.

 

[Josiah]

Atonement = reconcile. You are misusing the term.

@1689Dave


Radical "TULIP" Calvinists gave the monikers for the two views. We're not discussing the validity of the monikers those radical Calvinists you echo gave for the two views. As mentioned to you MANY times by at least 3 of us, the Lutheran Confessions, the 39 Articles of Anglicanism, and the Catholic Church used NO moniker for the view. See CCC 605 for example. You've been quoted Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, the Lutheran Confessions - all stating the view (but not employing ANY moniker for it).

Here are the two views:

1. Jesus died for all....

2. Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown view....



Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

and many more just like the above.


Does the Bible state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few?

Crickets.

+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes cars, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.

+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).

Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NO ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "For makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy.



Dave, your theory for why some don't have personal justification is that Jesus did not die for them (the CROSS is the reason), that theory just obviously and flat out contradicts Scripture (a lot of them) as well as a Church Council and 1500 years of universal Christian faith. I think your theory is wrong (unless Scripture is wrong).


A blessed Advent season to all...


- Josiah



.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Radical "TULIP" Calvinists gave the monikers for the two views. We're not discussing the validity of the monikers those radical Calvinists you echo gave for the two views. As mentioned to you MANY times by at least 3 of us, the Lutheran Confessions, the 39 Articles of Anglicanism, and the Catholic Church used NO moniker for the view. See CCC 605 for example. You've been quoted Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, the Lutheran Confessions - all stating the view (but not employing ANY moniker for it).

Here are the two views:

1. Jesus died for all....

2. Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown view....



Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all?

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

and many more just like the above.


Does the Bible state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few?

Crickets.

+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes cars, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.

+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).

Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NO ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "For makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy.



Dave, your theory for why some don't have personal justification is that Jesus did not die for them (the CROSS is the reason), that theory just obviously and flat out contradicts Scripture (a lot of them) as well as a Church Council and 1500 years of universal Christian faith. I think your theory is wrong (unless Scripture is wrong).


A blessed Advent season to all...


- Josiah



.

You never explained yourself in this matter. posted by me at least twice. See if you can knock this one out of the ring.

John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.


“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees did not believe, is because he did not die for them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You never explained yourself in this matter. posted by me at least twice. See if you can knock this one out of the ring.

Words you ought to live by and so deal with the matter I raised with you at least four times.
The matter is this:

"Being a Catholic I know that Gödel's theorem regarding incompleteness in the created universe of Mathematics has an analogy in the creation of which we are a part. Fundamentally, every mystery in the holy scriptures is something that we - human beings - would not know but for God revealing it to us and that means that all we know is what God revealed rather than everything exhaustively implied by what God has revealed. Moses was taught to say to Israel "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29. Catholic Christians have the humility and the wisdom to admit when our knowledge comes to an end."​

Do you understand the issue, do you know what 'incompleteness" means - it could help if you knew what Dr Gödel's theorem is - do you know? Are you aware that ultimately every part of human knowledge ends in "mystery"? That humanity only knows what God has revealed and that all the rest is secret and belongs to the LORD? Do you understand that advancing a theory about God's secret things is human pride - hubris - that can only end in error and falsehoods?

 

[1689Dave]

Words you ought to live by and so deal with the matter I raised with you at least four times.
The matter is this:

"Being a Catholic I know that Gödel's theorem regarding incompleteness in the created universe of Mathematics has an analogy in the creation of which we are a part. Fundamentally, every mystery in the holy scriptures is something that we - human beings - would not know but for God revealing it to us and that means that all we know is what God revealed rather than everything exhaustively implied by what God has revealed. Moses was taught to say to Israel "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29. Catholic Christians have the humility and the wisdom to admit when our knowledge comes to an end."​

Do you understand the issue, do you know what 'incompleteness" means - it could help if you knew what Dr Gödel's theorem is - do you know? Are you aware that ultimately every part of human knowledge ends in "mystery"? That humanity only knows what God has revealed and that all the rest is secret and belongs to the LORD? Do you understand that advancing a theory about God's secret things is human pride - hubris - that can only end in error and falsehoods?

Brains don't cut it in the realm of the Spirit. “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” 1 Corinthians 1:25 (KJV 1900)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brains don't cut it in the realm of the Spirit. “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” 1 Corinthians 1:25 (KJV 1900)

Mystery fills the soul when one stands before the Father's glory and realises how incomprehensibly deep and wide it is. God graces us with revelation and mercifully accommodates his revelation to our capacity.

Grace to know God will lead me home is sufficient for me. I am content to leave the details in God's keeping confident that God will give what is needed when it is needed.

 

[1689Dave]

Mystery fills the soul when one stands before the Father's glory and realises how incomprehensibly deep and wide it is. God graces us with revelation and mercifully accommodates his revelation to our capacity.

Grace to know God will lead me home is sufficient for me. I am content to leave the details in God's keeping confident that God will give what is needed when it is needed.

You still have nothing of substance. What about your murderous Church history? Do you renounce that? How is the Pope any different from Hitler other than the Popes killed Christians and Hitler killed Jews?

 

[Lamb]

I have to butt in on this thread and speak up for our Catholic members and Catholic lurkers. What's happened in the past is not what is happening in the present. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are not killers and as far as I know, MoreCoffee has never threatened anyone's life and he and I have gotten into a lot of heated exchanges over the past decade

With that said, let's please remember to address others as if you were speaking to Christ Himself, with love and respect.

 

[1689Dave]

I have to butt in on this thread and speak up for our Catholic members and Catholic lurkers. What's happened in the past is not what is happening in the present. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are not killers and as far as I know, MoreCoffee has never threatened anyone's life and he and I have gotten into a lot of heated exchanges over the past decade

With that said, let's please remember to address others as if you were speaking to Christ Himself, with love and respect.

You shall know them by their fruits? How do you explain the Anabaptists in your history?

 

[Lamb]

You shall know them by their fruits? How do you explain the Anabaptists in your history?

My fruits here is to remind members that they should be little Christs.

If I have killed anyone, call me out on it. If not, don't blame the past on me.

 

[1689Dave]

My fruits here is to remind members that they should be little Christs.

If I have killed anyone, call me out on it. If not, don't blame the past on me.

Has your church ever admitted and repented publically?

 

[Lamb]

Has your church ever admitted and repented publically?

My congregation? They never killed anyone either.

 

[1689Dave]

My congregation? They never killed anyone either.

But you are part of something that did?