Is grace the cause of one's salvation?

1689Dave

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Hardly any of those verses can be made to say that Christ died for only a select few who had been predestined from all eternity. Most just indicate that God HAS adherents while there are other people who are not followers. I think we all know that to be true, and it doesn't say anything about Christ dying for only a predetermined few. And when you try to pass off "many" as meaning only a select number, that's ridiculous.

And, by the way, this particular forum is a "Christian Only" forum. Respect the rules.
Doesn't the word "Many" limit the application and make "ALL" devoid of meaning when the subject remains the same?
 

Josiah

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You ignore all of the scriptures that clearly say Christ died only for ALL the elect.

No. I'm ignoring nothing. It's just that you have no verse that states that. If you did, you've had over 500 opportunities to quote it, but you haven't, and we all know why.

Thanks for post 19 and 21. And for proving - again - not once does Scripture state that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few.
And for proving your whole point, your entire apologetic, depends - completely - on a logical fallacy.



.
 

1689Dave

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No. I'm ignoring nothing. It's just that you have no verse that states that. If you did, you've had over 500 opportunities to quote it, but you haven't, and we all know why.

Thanks for post 19 and 21. And for proving - again - not once does Scripture state that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few.
And for proving your whole point, your entire apologetic, depends - completely - on a logical fallacy.



.
Let's see how you interpret this brief easy to read passage:
John 10 shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees in his audience and that is why they did not believe.


“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)


“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

So, the reason the Pharisees did not believe, is because he did not die for them.
 

Albion

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Doesn't the word "Many" limit the application and make "ALL" devoid of meaning when the subject remains the same?
No.

The first definition given in the Merriam Webster dictionary directs us to that usage:
"consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number"
 
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MoreCoffee

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If one wants to comment on Christ being the good shepherd in John 10, then try reading the passage rather than selecting a verse as a "proof text" for a Calvinist theory.

"Amen, amen, I say to you, he who does not enter through the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up by another way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name, and he leads them out. And when he has sent out his sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. But they do not follow a stranger; instead they flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." Jesus spoke this proverb to them. But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Therefore, Jesus spoke to them again: "Amen, amen, I say to you, that I am the door of the sheep. All others, as many as have come, are thieves and robbers, and the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone has entered through me, he will be saved. And he shall go in and go out, and he shall find pastures. The thief does not come, except so that he may steal and slaughter and destroy. I have come so that they may have life, and have it more abundantly. I am the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep. But the hired hand, and whoever is not a shepherd, to whom the sheep do not belong, he sees the wolf approaching, and he departs from the sheep and flees. And the wolf ravages and scatters the sheep. And the hired hand flees, because he is a hired hand and there is no concern for the sheep within him. I am the good Shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for my sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and I must lead them. They shall hear my voice, and there shall be one sheepfold and one shepherd. For this reason, the Father loves me: because I lay down my life, so that I may take it up again. No one takes it away from me. Instead, I lay it down of my own accord. And I have the power to lay it down. And I have the power to take it up again. This is the commandment that I have received from my Father." A dissension occurred again among the Jews because of these words. Then many of them were saying: "He has a demon or he is insane. Why do you listen him?" Others were saying: "These are not the words of someone who has a demon. How would a demon be able to open the eyes of the blind?"
John 10:1-21
 
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