Wealth disparity

Jazzy

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Homelessness, street crime, unaffordable healthcare, political corruption are all a direct result of the disproportionate distribution of wealth in America.

How do we fix the wealth disparity in the US?
 

1689Dave

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Homelessness, street crime, unaffordable healthcare, political corruption are all a direct result of the disproportionate distribution of wealth in America.

How do we fix the wealth disparity in the US?
For the Christian, the Sermon on the Mount shows the way to having needs met by God: Matthew 6:24-34. I made a successful career from this. Knowing God is your source gives you great freedom.
 

ValleyGal

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Jesus healed, he gave to the poor, he asked the wealthy to give it up and follow his ways... iow, social programs to get people on their feet, like healthcare and distribution of wealth (social programs like universal healthcare - not the obamacare type, either! - and income assistance, disability programs that allow for a roof over their heads, back to work programs, programs to help small business to hire employees, rehabilitation and visitation programs for people in prison, etc). Research shows that social programs work to support a strong economy. Some of you will call me a socialist, but I believe in social justice! After all, capitalism has shown itself to only benefit the Fortune 100 (which, btw, used to be the fortune 500 and will soon only be the Fortune 25).
 

Albion

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Jesus healed, he gave to the poor, he asked the wealthy to give it up and follow his ways... iow, social programs to get people on their feet, like healthcare and distribution of wealth (social programs like universal healthcare -
Nope. Jesus taught individual PEOPLE to be mindful of the needs of others. At no time did he recommend that other people, or governments, confiscate some people's wealth in order to distribute it to different people favored by that same government! You will not find any support for such a thing coming from Jesus, not anywhere in the New Testament!.

Love and charity demonstrated by individuals who have been moved to care about other people is Godly. Christ urged people to be mindful of the needs of the less fortunate and to be helpful.

That is quite different from working towards--or supporting--the establishment of a political system in which some people can control the populace through force and use it to favor the particular individuals in society that it chooses to benefit.
 

Josiah

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Homelessness, street crime, unaffordable healthcare, political corruption are all a direct result of the disproportionate distribution of wealth in America.


I don't accept that.


What proof do you have for this bold declaration?



.


 

tango

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Homelessness, street crime, unaffordable healthcare, political corruption are all a direct result of the disproportionate distribution of wealth in America.

How do we fix the wealth disparity in the US?

Are they all direct results of wealth disparity? Haven't there always been rich and poor? Yet a lot of these problems were far less pronounced in years and decades gone by.

Do we need to address the issue that some have more than others? If you work hard and I sit on my butt watching TV all day, is it unfair that you grow wealthy while I grow fat? If you trip over a gold bar and decide to complain about it, while I trip on the same gold bar and take it home, is it unfair that I end up wealthier than you? If you spend your time and money working on growing your business while I spend my time and money buying fancy clothes and enjoying expensive vacations is it unfair that I end up with no savings while you have a lot of money to fall back on? Is it fair to then take the fruits of your labor and give them to me, given that you didn't enjoy any of the things I spent my resources on?

There is a reasonable case to be made that the productivity of workers has increased while wages have not, but that's a different issue and complex enough that a couple of soundbites on a forum won't fix it.
 

ValleyGal

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Christ urged people to be mindful of the needs of the less fortunate and to be helpful.
The problem is that individual people don't. Especially the wealthiest who could. It might appear so because you get these headlines that Oprah gave $1,000,000 to some charity or other but in the big scheme of her $2.5 billion, it's nothing. Now, when she does something worth mentioning, like give away two of her billion and keeps .5 for herself, she still has $500 million. More than I would see in 500 lifetimes. Do I think she should be forced to give that away? No, but I do think very wealthy people only give money away because it's a tax benefit for themselves.

Social programs invest in the people of the country, and if that means very wealthy people pay a little more in taxes to make it happen, then I say it should be necessary. It's better than having crime, poverty, homelessness on the rise. The church couldn't provide enough to sustain the funds needed to support social issues, so the state had to take over, except in the US. Social programs are very successful in other countries. Iirc, it's Norway (?) who has all but eradicated teen addictions. Why? Because they invest in social programs for youth!

The church doesn't do it well enough.
Because I may soon die ... He is helping me keep to my commitment.
Sometimes wealth can be a curse. Jesus said it's harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom... I won't offer some platitude meant to make you feel better like "I'll pray for you." I will, but I recognize that without taking action to assist homeless and/or dying people in my own backyard, my prayers don't hold water.
 

tango

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Jesus healed, he gave to the poor, he asked the wealthy to give it up and follow his ways... iow, social programs to get people on their feet, like healthcare and distribution of wealth (social programs like universal healthcare - not the obamacare type, either! - and income assistance, disability programs that allow for a roof over their heads, back to work programs, programs to help small business to hire employees, rehabilitation and visitation programs for people in prison, etc). Research shows that social programs work to support a strong economy. Some of you will call me a socialist, but I believe in social justice! After all, capitalism has shown itself to only benefit the Fortune 100 (which, btw, used to be the fortune 500 and will soon only be the Fortune 25).

I'm not sure how you get from one to the other here.

Jesus encouraged us to give to the poor. I'd love to see where in the Bible it says we should set up government-run programs so we can force other people to fund the things Jesus told us to fund. But then we can look at the story of the Good Samaritan and see how he stumbled upon the man who had been beaten and immediately wrote to his government demanding more spending to help people like that. Oh, hang on, that's not quite what he did...

Some social programs may work to benefit a strong economy. That doesn't mean Jesus told us to do them. He told us to care for those who have little. That means we get our hands dirty in more direct ways than simply seeing some money taken out of our pay every month. There's also quite the difference between people who have little - the difference between the "widows and orphans" mentioned by James (i.e. peope who cannot provide for themselves) and those who are simply lazy. Obviously these days a woman doesn't have to have a man by her side to pay her bills so some of the text is clearly cultural but the difference between someone who can't work and someone who won't work stands the test of time.

Capitalism benefits far more than the Fortune 100. What we have going on now is a kind of crony kleptocracy that masquerades as capitalism, where if you grow big enough you can keep your profits while dumping losses on anyone and everyone else. It's a pretty sweet deal when you can say "my profit" when times are good while saying "our loss" when times turn bad but the government bails you out with everyone else's money.
 

tango

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The problem is that individual people don't.

So your answer to people ignoring what Christ said to do is to use government as a blunt instrument to force them, while claiming you're only doing Christ's bidding?

Especially the wealthiest who could. It might appear so because you get these headlines that Oprah gave $1,000,000 to some charity or other but in the big scheme of her $2.5 billion, it's nothing. Now, when she does something worth mentioning, like give away two of her billion and keeps .5 for herself, she still has $500 million. More than I would see in 500 lifetimes. Do I think she should be forced to give that away? No, but I do think very wealthy people only give money away because it's a tax benefit for themselves.

People get to decide for themselves what they do with their own resources. Remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira? The text is very clear that the field was theirs, the proceeds from the sale was theirs, and they could do what they wanted with the money.

Social programs invest in the people of the country, and if that means very wealthy people pay a little more in taxes to make it happen, then I say it should be necessary. It's better than having crime, poverty, homelessness on the rise. The church couldn't provide enough to sustain the funds needed to support social issues, so the state had to take over, except in the US. Social programs are very successful in other countries. Iirc, it's Norway (?) who has all but eradicated teen addictions. Why? Because they invest in social programs for youth!

The trouble is it's very hard to make the very wealthy pay more in taxes and even if you could do it the problem remains that you're trying to decide what should happen with someone else's money. It's easy to spend someone else's money. It's much harder to spend your own resources. Jesus didn't tell us to hound other people to do things, he told us to do it.

The church doesn't do it well enough.

To an extent the church is guilty as you describe. The church has lots of fancy buildings but in some ways has become a glorified social club. We throw a few bones to the weak and the lame but don't want to really get our hands dirty by doing something drastic, like letting a homeless person come and live with us. That would be asking too much. It's easier to write a check to the shelter and figure Someone Else can deal with it.

Unfortunately the problem is still the same - Jesus never told us to set up central programs that take from most (except the richest), distribute it according to some random government formula and waste a lot along the way.

Sometimes wealth can be a curse. Jesus said it's harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom... I won't offer some platitude meant to make you feel better like "I'll pray for you." I will, but I recognize that without taking action to assist homeless and/or dying people in my own backyard, my prayers don't hold water.

Indeed, when it's time for judgment we give account for our actions, not the actions of others. The billionaire who decided to buy an extra yacht instead of helping the homeless in his own town isn't your concern.
 

Albion

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The problem is that individual people don't.
You mean that they don't give as much as would be needed in order to create a much more pleasant society with a minimum of privation, want, or unhappiness. And I would have to agree with that.

On the other hand, no earthly government has been able to do that, even when exercising the maximum of power over its people such as, for instance, in China today.

What that means is it is all too easy to say that a government that simply commandeers the earnings of ordinary citizens for its projects, including allegedly benevolent ones, isn't the answer that admirers of the idea of strong, centralized, governments imagine.

But that isn't the real issue anyway. The contention was the Jesus had recommended or favored having a government with such powers in the expectation that it would use that money ink a benevolent manner.

He did not.

Nowhere, at no time.


Especially the wealthiest who could. It might appear so because you get these headlines that Oprah gave $1,000,000 to some charity or other but in the big scheme of her $2.5 billion, it's nothing. Now, when she does something worth mentioning, like give away two of her billion and keeps .5 for herself, she still has $500 million. More than I would see in 500 lifetimes. Do I think she should be forced to give that away? No, but I do think very wealthy people only give money away because it's a tax benefit for themselves.


Again, the claim of Jesus having supported what you are talking about is false.

Here it is again:
Jesus healed, he gave to the poor, he asked the wealthy to give it up and follow his ways... iow, social programs to get people on their feet, like healthcare and distribution of wealth (social programs like universal healthcare
That is patently untrue. Jesus never did that.
 
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ValleyGal

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So your answer to people ignoring what Christ said to do is to use government as a blunt instrument to force them, while claiming you're only doing Christ's bidding?
It's better than letting the saved and unsaved alike die under a bridge, in a garbage bin or on the streets in a makeshift tent just so the ultra wealthy can go on bathing in their billions. Lives are more important than their mansions.
Remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira? The text is very clear that the field was theirs, the proceeds from the sale was theirs, and they could do what they wanted with the money.
That's what you got from the story? Hmm. I get this: that there was a social model where everyone shared and it worked for everyone, as there was no one needy among them. A program where the apostles were given money and it was redistributed so that everyone had all they needed. Ananias and Sapphira lied - "no one claimed that any of their possessions was their own" and yet they held something back as their own. No one is asking that wealthy people give away ALL they own, but the model that was implemented worked. And don't lie about it or God will smite you. What does that look like in western societies today? Well, a great social program means that someone - whether government or church - collects money from the masses and redistributes to ensure at least people are able to survive, and don't lie on your taxes about it just to get out of paying what you owe.
It's easy to spend someone else's money.
Yes, and instead of creating programs that sustain the masses, corrupt governments continue to support the rich and oppress the poor, and spend $15,000 on a toilet for the White House. Perhaps rather than complaining about social programs, someone should petition the churches to take over because clearly we should all be contributing to social justice rather than social oppression, no matter who does the redistribution. All I know is that individual people helping individual people is not working, and there is a biblical model that does work.
 

ValleyGal

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Again, the claim of Jesus having supported what you are talking about is false.
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mt 19:21
 

Albion

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Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mt 19:21
...which has nothing to do with GOVERNMENT programs. You are describing private charity and private acts.

I pointed that critical difference out to you in my first reply after you'd written that Jesus had urged "social programs to get people on their feet, like healthcare and distribution of wealth (social programs like universal healthcare."
 

Albion

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It's better than letting the saved and unsaved alike die under a bridge, in a garbage bin or on the streets in a makeshift tent just so the ultra wealthy can go on bathing in their billions. Lives are more important than their mansions.
So, you've now narrowed your proposal down to hitting just the "ultra wealthy." That sounds better to the ear, but it's not the "ultra wealthy" who are the most impacted by having the government confiscate wealth.

Most of the funding for social welfare programs falls on the people who are just above the poorest. For example, consider the plan of the current occupant of the White House to waive the student loan debts of relatively well-off college graduates and shift it to the taxpayers generally, including people who couldn't afford to go to college.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mt 19:21
You're just begging us to ask if YOU, personally, have sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor.
 
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tango

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It's better than letting the saved and unsaved alike die under a bridge, in a garbage bin or on the streets in a makeshift tent just so the ultra wealthy can go on bathing in their billions. Lives are more important than their mansions.

Obviously not to them, or they'd give more money to fix it. Or do you get to be the final arbiter of what is right?

That's what you got from the story? Hmm. I get this: that there was a social model where everyone shared and it worked for everyone, as there was no one needy among them. A program where the apostles were given money and it was redistributed so that everyone had all they needed. Ananias and Sapphira lied - "no one claimed that any of their possessions was their own" and yet they held something back as their own. No one is asking that wealthy people give away ALL they own, but the model that was implemented worked. And don't lie about it or God will smite you. What does that look like in western societies today? Well, a great social program means that someone - whether government or church - collects money from the masses and redistributes to ensure at least people are able to survive, and don't lie on your taxes about it just to get out of paying what you owe.

There was a social model where people shared freely. Note that last word - it's crucial. What they had was theirs (again, that last word is crucial). They chose to share with no compulsion whatsoever. See the common theme? It's not hard to understand. What is mine is mine, what is yours is yours, I get to decide what to do with what is mine and you get to decide what to do with what is yours. Ananias and Sapphira were told that very thing. Had they chosen not to share that would have been fine. Had they not sold the field it would have been their choice. It was theirs.

You don't get to tell me what to do with what is mine, and I don't get to tell you what to do with what is yours.

Yes, and instead of creating programs that sustain the masses, corrupt governments continue to support the rich and oppress the poor, and spend $15,000 on a toilet for the White House. Perhaps rather than complaining about social programs, someone should petition the churches to take over because clearly we should all be contributing to social justice rather than social oppression, no matter who does the redistribution. All I know is that individual people helping individual people is not working, and there is a biblical model that does work.

... which is all the more reason not to create programs through the government.

Incidentally, where did Jesus tell us to set things up so that Someone Else can do the stuff he told us to do? Are you talking about the biblical model based on voluntary giving (i.e. with no compulsion whatsoever, however much someone has), or the Old Testament system of tithes that applied to crops and was entirely managed by the priests?
 

tango

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Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mt 19:21

Was that the time when the rich man freely chose not to give to the poor and Jesus ran after him and forced him to do it anyway?
 

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Wow. Some of you here are getting very testy. Just a little defensive, eh?

You're just begging us to ask if YOU, personally, have sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor.
I am not "begging" but I live in a very small, old, modest home and when I am done with possessions, I donate them to thrift. I pay my taxes - some of which goes to infrastructure (such as the bridge under which people die), some to social programs such as the healthcare program in which I work, income assistance, disability income, old age security, employment programs, corrections and reintegration programs, childcare programs, rental assistance programs, and more. I am very generous, even though until less than a year ago, I hardly had to quarters to rub together. Why? Because I know what it's like to be on the edge of homelessness. Maybe every capitalist and rich person here should go live for a year under the bridge without food or warmth.
Obviously not to them, or they'd give more money to fix it.
Capitalism and greed too often rob people of compassion and generosity.
where did Jesus tell us to set things up so that Someone Else can do the stuff he told us to do?
You people here focus too much on the idea that giving should be voluntary. The problem is that most people don't teach generosity to their children, so no one is giving enough to save lives, to provide shelter and food and clean water. If it is not done voluntarily, then yes, it should be managed through some institution, agency or system. Canada is a "capitalist" and greedy country too, but I sure am proud of the social programs available here. Focus on the biblical principles. Generosity is a biblical value. Distributing wealth was a social program that worked, whether it is voluntary or not. People are not doing it voluntarily and people are dying so yeah... if you value life, you need to value ALL life - even the lives of those who are on the streets starving or freezing to death. But you don't. You value the life of the unborn child but find the life of a dying homeless man or woman meaningless. Shame on y'all.

I'm glad I don't play the lottery. I'd never want to win. I'd never want to be that rich. Money ruins people's hearts.
 

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Wow. Some of you here are getting very testy. Just a little defensive, eh?
I wouldn't say so. The absurdity of the original proposition did invite blunt replies, however.
I am not "begging" but I live in a very small, old, modest home and when I am done with possessions, I donate them to thrift. I pay my taxes - some of which goes to infrastructure (such as the bridge under which people die), some to social programs such as the healthcare program in which I work, income assistance, disability income, old age security, employment programs, corrections and reintegration programs, childcare programs, rental assistance programs, and more. I am very generous, even though until less than a year ago, I hardly had to quarters to rub together. Why? Because I know what it's like to be on the edge of homelessness. Maybe every capitalist and rich person here should go live for a year under the bridge without food or warmth.

What exactly is the attraction of authoritarianism for you? Since you ask, the way you have worded post after post does not come across as a plea for compassion but more like an exercise in using Leftist political jargon and the like. No one responding to you so far has denigrated the idea of charity, so if that had been what you were advocating, there most likely would have been a completely positive reaction. And don't forget that you started us off with a bald-faced falsehood, insisting that Jesus had advocated for government welfare programs.

Canada is a "capitalist" and greedy country too, but I sure am proud of the social programs available here.
Does that include having to wait up to six months for life-saving surgery?? That kind of thing is unheard of in the United States.
 
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ValleyGal

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Does that include having to wait up to six months for life-saving surgery?? That kind of thing is unheard of in the United States.
Rich people can afford life-saving surgery. Poor people can't. So in the US, poor people die and rich people get to live. Iow, poor people's lives don't matter; they have no value. I feel for the poor people who can't afford the babies they are forced to have because abortion is abolished. Those unborn babies have value only until they die under bridges, unable to afford life-saving surgeries or food.

In Canada, the rich and poor alike go on wait lists for surgery. It's not a perfect system; I never claimed it was, but I am thankful for it because I have had life-saving care as well as life-altering injury care and am not in debt up to my eyeballs because of it. Rich people are more than welcome to travel abroad for whatever health care they want, and it can be used for tax deductions. If their treatment is medically necessary and unavailable in Canada, the provincial governments will cover it as well as travel costs. We have a good system. Not perfect, but good. And it values all life, not just the life of those who can afford to live.

Did you know...? Every year people give to places like homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food banks. All the money that is donated to making those places run could instead be pooled and it could be used to house all those homeless people who use those services. Once a person has an address, they are more likely to use other services such as addictions assistance, employment programs, etc. Once they have an address, they are able to receive income assistance cheques so they can buy their own food. Shelters would no longer exist and people would have homes. This is why social programs are so necessary. They help people to actually live independently.
 

Albion

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Rich people can afford life-saving surgery. Poor people can't. So in the US, poor people die and rich people get to live.
I am beginning to think that you live in some world of your own imagination or else spend too much time hanging around the local NDP headquarters. You have somehow gotten misinformation about the way things work in the USA and are simultaneously unwilling to admit the truth about the Canadian system of things.
 
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