Racism

[Stravinsk]

So I'm watching this doco on Charlie Manson (phew...5 hours!) and there is a section on the 60's and the race divide in the USA.

When I grew up (70's-80's) as a kid my community was mostly white, some Mexicans and some blacks. I never knew any inherent prejudice for or against any group of people. In fact this was never an issue until my early adulthood, where there formed (in my neighborhood) certain gangs of hispanics that didn't like whites and targeted them. One particular experience had me wary of hispanics for a time but otherwise I was fine with everyone. I worked with and had friends who were not white.

Somehow in the USA this has become a generational issue. Do you think it's something natural, or something certain influential individuals perpetuate for the sake of division? Because outside of specific negative experiences that might lead one to discriminate based on experience, I do not see anything natural about it.

What do you think the division and hatred is fueled by?

 

[Lamb]

There was a study done with babies using puppets decades ago. What they learned is that the puppet who resembled the color of the baby's parents was a favorite and when something bad happened to a puppet that was a different color, the baby laughed and thought justice was done. I haven't seen that study posted online in a few years so YouTube probably shut it down because of liberalism and wokeism.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

There was a study done with babies using puppets decades ago. What they learned is that the puppet who resembled the color of the baby's parents was a favorite and when something bad happened to a puppet that was a different color, the baby laughed and thought justice was done. I haven't seen that study posted online in a few years so YouTube probably shut it down because of liberalism and wokeism.

How does a baby understand the concept of justice? I would really like to see how this study was done because it sounds pretty woke, trying to make out that white equals racist or something.

I grew up in the 1960s and 1870s and racism was very alive back then. I don't see it anymore since about the 1980s. I always felt that there was a socioeconomic component in that black people were generally poorer than white people and had somewhat different culture. Today black people are far more like us, working side by side with us, so we no longer look at race because they are among and a part of us vs being an us/them thing back in the 1960s.

In Detroit, as black people moved into the neighborhoods, white people fled to the suburbs. They refer to that as white flight. My parents left too, in 1972, for a number of reasons, including a bigger house, and safer schools as the schools in Detroit had become pretty rough. When black people started moving to the suburbs in the 1990s my realtor told me I should move as the neighborhood was changing. I refused, noting that the black people who had moved in were good neighbors and took care of their places, where the worst kept places in the neighborhood were owned by white people. I am still in this neighborhood and have never had a problem and have not seen racism here.

 

[1689Dave]

The Jews speak for me on Race.

"Jews are explicitly not a race. Indeed, race is a godless construct stemming from Darwinian and Evolutionary ideas about how one group of homo sapiens might evolve more quickly and more fully than others. However, the Torah utterly rejects such disgusting racial theory. Every human being is created equally in the image of God. There is only one race and that’s the human race." The Jerusalem Post https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695683

Christians too ; “And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” Acts 17:26 (KJV 1900)



"It was the diabolical Nazis who, using their monstrous lie that Jews are a distinct and inferior race, annihilated six million Jews they determined were subhumans as part of their godless lie that there is anything other than one human family." https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695683

 

[tango]

I remember in my pre-teen years the area I lived was overwhelmingly white. In my school of around 700 kids there were two kids who were not white. One was mixed race but visibly black, the other was ethnically from the Indian subcontinent.

The black kid got called a golliwog because he had tightly curled black hair and dark skin, much like the toy. Although these days calling a black kid a golliwog would be considered utterly unacceptable it really wasn't any different to the kid with glasses being called four-eyes, or the kid with ginger hair being called a coppertop, or the overweight kid being called fatso.

I think a lot of racial issues are manufactured and overstated. I don't doubt for a minute that there is genuine racism, coming from all races and directed at all races. I just think much of it is talked up to make a point. I remember some years ago in a British school there was a dispute between an overweight kid and a kid of Asian descent. The Asian kid called the overweight kid names relating to his weight until the overweight kid got sick of it, pushed the Asian kid and called him a "Paki bastard". The result was that the police were called and charges of "racially aggravated common assault" were discussed. From what I recall the kids were maybe 9 or 10, and the situation was nothing more than a playground dispute. But because a racially offensive name was used an example had to be made. it's hard to see either kid learning a useful lesson from that experience.

I think a major trouble is when trivial issues are treated as if they were huge issues it makes it harder to deal with genuine problems.

 

[Albion]

Lots of truths in that post, tango, but when it comes to the charge of racism, it's becoming apparent that this gem is just a means to an end. It's gotten so ridiculous that blacks are called 'white supremacists' by a certain political faction and purely ordinary words are called racist simply because somebody--or just a hypothetical somebody--might think they refer to something that they do not, in fact do.

The charge of racism, in other words, is a means to an end, and the end is the dismantling of Western society so that some other social order can take its place. I assume that the readers know what that one would be without it being spelled out in detail.

 

[tango]

Lots of truths in that post, tango, but when it comes to the charge of racism, it's becoming apparent that this gem is just a means to an end. It's gotten so ridiculous that blacks are called 'white supremacists' by a certain political faction and purely ordinary words are called racist simply because somebody--or just a hypothetical somebody--might think they refer to something that they do not, in fact do.

The charge of racism, in other words, is a means to an end, and the end is the dismantling of Western society so that some other social order can take its place. I assume that the readers know what that one would be without it being spelled out in detail.

Accusations of racism often appear to be little more than a convenient way to shut down discussion, as if nothing else they tend to shift people onto the defensive trying to show they aren't actually racist.

It does remind me of a demonstration in (I think) Virginia in support of the 2nd Amendment, that the left-leaning press wrote off as little more than a bunch of white supremacists. I remember one picture that showed two men - one was black and the other was either Asian or Oriental, both carrying their guns and signs saying "do I look like a white supremacist?". No.... they didn't look like white anything.

The issue of the "racist dog whistle" is verging on comical. A perfectly innocent term apparently means something totally different but only if you know what it means, and yet somehow the left-leaning press has an insight into what the far-right troublemakers are allegedly planning to do. It seems like a handy allegation to make because it's almost impossible to disprove - when the speaker says "and let's make sure our protest is peaceful" you can allege that what he really means is "and make sure to rough up as many blacks as you can along the way" and nobody can prove he doesn't. And if, somewhere during the otherwise peaceful protest some idiot does hurt a black person (whether the attack was targeted and directly racist, or because of something unrelated and the victim just happened to be black, or because the black person instigated something and the "attack" was nothing more than self-defense) they get to crow about how they tried to warn people.

 

[ValleyGal]

There was a study done with babies using puppets decades ago. What they learned is that the puppet who resembled the color of the baby's parents was a favorite and when something bad happened to a puppet that was a different color, the baby laughed and thought justice was done. I haven't seen that study posted online in a few years so YouTube probably shut it down because of liberalism and wokeism.

Lamb, is this the study you are referring to?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/study-babies-like-watching-puppets-who-are-different-from-them-get-hurt/275602/

Not being racist is more than just ignoring the colour of skin or seeing us all the same in God's eyes. Society has built-in racism that is systemic, and if we simply don't see colour, then we are indeed, racist. Those who are of a visible minority have historically and systemically had barriers that prevent them from the same opportunities and access to opportunities than white, middle and upper class folks. If we want to not be racist, we need to understand the biases they face every day, and be honest with ourselves about our biases and preconceived notions about certain races.

When you see an Indigenous person, do you just try to not see their colour, or do you see their colour and recognize the impact of colonialism on their rights and freedoms, their rural reservations acting as barriers to accessing adequate water, healthcare and educational and employment opportunities? When you see a black person, do you try not to see their colour, or do you see it and understand the generations of historical trauma of slavery, beatings, and lynchings at the hands of not only the KKK but anyone who happened to make assumptions and judge them guilty in the moment, kind of like the racial profiling that continues to this day? When you look at someone who is Mexican, do you see their colour and understand the desperation that led them to risk their life to cross the border and seek a new way to fight for survival?

Now, what kind of assumptions do you make about each of these groups? Why do you think racial profiling happens? Why do you think there are fewer black, Mexican or Indigenous people in positions of power in politics and business?

Here's a really good video - worth the 5 minutes or so - on racism and its effects on privilege and power.

 

[Lamb]

Lamb, is this the study you are referring to?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/study-babies-like-watching-puppets-who-are-different-from-them-get-hurt/275602/

Not being racist is more than just ignoring the colour of skin or seeing us all the same in God's eyes. Society has built-in racism that is systemic, and if we simply don't see colour, then we are indeed, racist. Those who are of a visible minority have historically and systemically had barriers that prevent them from the same opportunities and access to opportunities than white, middle and upper class folks. If we want to not be racist, we need to understand the biases they face every day, and be honest with ourselves about our biases and preconceived notions about certain races.

When you see an Indigenous person, do you just try to not see their colour, or do you see their colour and recognize the impact of colonialism on their rights and freedoms, their rural reservations acting as barriers to accessing adequate water, healthcare and educational and employment opportunities? When you see a black person, do you try not to see their colour, or do you see it and understand the generations of historical trauma of slavery, beatings, and lynchings at the hands of not only the KKK but anyone who happened to make assumptions and judge them guilty in the moment, kind of like the racial profiling that continues to this day? When you look at someone who is Mexican, do you see their colour and understand the desperation that led them to risk their life to cross the border and seek a new way to fight for survival?

Now, what kind of assumptions do you make about each of these groups? Why do you think racial profiling happens? Why do you think there are fewer black, Mexican or Indigenous people in positions of power in politics and business?

Here's a really good video - worth the 5 minutes or so - on racism and its effects on privilege and power.

What it comes down to is that we naturally are leery of others who look different from us. That could also include disabilities. I see children gawking at those who are missing certain limbs, much to the chagrin of their parents.

In high school, no one wanted to be different because they would be teased.

Racism isn't just toward non-whites. It happens to whites too and in some countries there were whites who were enslaved by blacks!

Now, the liberal governments try to lean toward making it up to the non-whites by being racist toward whites. It is still racism.

 

[Josiah]

RACISM: The view that race matters.

When some (generally liberals) go on and on and on and on and on - endlessly, constantly - about one's race, then obviously they think it matters. Evidently, a lot.

I don't think it does. Not at all. Not a bit. I agree with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr who dreamed of a day when people would be judged not by the color of their skin but the CHARACTER of their hearts. I agree. Unfortunately, it seems Liberals are fighting hard to do the opposite: to make race matter and character not. The news media does the same, talking much of race and never of character.



.

 

[tango]

Lamb, is this the study you are referring to?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/study-babies-like-watching-puppets-who-are-different-from-them-get-hurt/275602/

Not being racist is more than just ignoring the colour of skin or seeing us all the same in God's eyes. Society has built-in racism that is systemic, and if we simply don't see colour, then we are indeed, racist. Those who are of a visible minority have historically and systemically had barriers that prevent them from the same opportunities and access to opportunities than white, middle and upper class folks. If we want to not be racist, we need to understand the biases they face every day, and be honest with ourselves about our biases and preconceived notions about certain races.

While I don't dispute there's some truth to this it's also a massive oversimplification.

I remember some years ago reading about how young black men couldn't succeed because they lacked positive role models. That morning I saw a black man wearing a very expensive suit driving a very expensive Ferrari convertible with the top down through the financial district. Obviously nobody told him he couldn't succeed in life.

It's perhaps also worth noting that the Jews suffered quite a lot of persecution in recent history but for the most part they just get on with their lives and often do very well.

When you see an Indigenous person, do you just try to not see their colour, or do you see their colour and recognize the impact of colonialism on their rights and freedoms, their rural reservations acting as barriers to accessing adequate water, healthcare and educational and employment opportunities? When you see a black person, do you try not to see their colour, or do you see it and understand the generations of historical trauma of slavery, beatings, and lynchings at the hands of not only the KKK but anyone who happened to make assumptions and judge them guilty in the moment, kind of like the racial profiling that continues to this day? When you look at someone who is Mexican, do you see their colour and understand the desperation that led them to risk their life to cross the border and seek a new way to fight for survival?

Why would you assume anything about the person?

The Mexican might have felt desperation sufficient to risk their life, they might have figured there was easy money on offer north of the border, they might have jumped through all the hoops and done everything legally in the hope of a better life (however they defined "better").

The black person might have been born to slaves and been downtrodden for their entire life. They might also have been born to slave owners, the ones who captured and enslaved their own people for profit.

How is it helpful to assume which one is true? It's not just Mexicans who move to a different country in the hope of a better life, it's not just whites who traded slaves.

Now, what kind of assumptions do you make about each of these groups? Why do you think racial profiling happens? Why do you think there are fewer black, Mexican or Indigenous people in positions of power in politics and business?

If a group has been historically excluded it takes time for them to work through the appropriate levels to get into the top positions. It simply isn't sensible to follow an approach that says "we've never let (group) enter management at all but, hey, we need some of them in top management so let's get busy promoting". That just leads to people promoted higher than their competence and risks creating reverse racism. Choosing the best candidate for promotion doesn't mean figuring you need a few different faces at the top so only selecting from a pool based on race/gender/orientation/whatever.

 

[ValleyGal]

While I don't dispute there's some truth to this it's also a massive oversimplification.

Yes, of course, because CH is not set up for me to write a thesis on racism and white privilege. lol

It's perhaps also worth noting that the Jews suffered quite a lot of persecution in recent history but for the most part they just get on with their lives and often do very well.

This is true, and if you are speaking about the atrocities from WW2 and the Jewish people who suffered in Germany and surrounding areas, there is a reason why they are (mostly) doing well. They are white and the atrocities ended. Blacks and Indigenous peoples are still going through the systemic barriers that were implemented during colonization. The system keeps most of them where they are: oppressed. If that were not true, more of them would have overcome and there would be equal representation in politics, business and other areas of society, and there would not be an over-representation of them in prisons, "projects" and ghettos.

Why would you assume anything about the person?

You shouldn't. My questions were intended for readers to do a little self-reflection so they could be honest with themselves about their own biases. We all have them. We all have preconceived notions based on what we are taught (enculturation) growing up. So we make assumptions and generalize them to the whole race. Most of us are unaware of them though. But if we want to be allies to those of colour, then we need to recognize our own biases, assumptions and prejudices, and we need to see how their own colour has kept them oppressed and given us white people privilege. We do not all start in the same place.

How is it helpful to assume which one is true? It's not just Mexicans who move to a different country in the hope of a better life, it's not just whites who traded slaves.

Again, rhetorical. Food for thought. I'm not saying I'm perfect in this area or have no biases of my own, but I have taken numerous cultural sensitivity courses and trainings, and done a lot of self-reflection. It would be easy to write a thesis or two or three on this subject. All I know is that skin colour does matter, and if we don't see that, then we are contributing to their oppression. We need to take the person as a whole being in a whole community, in a whole society, in a country of policies and trends and social expectations, etc, and in a whole era of morals, etc.

If a group has been historically excluded it takes time for them to work through the appropriate levels to get into the top positions. It simply isn't sensible to follow an approach that says "we've never let (group) enter management at all but, hey, we need some of them in top management so let's get busy promoting". That just leads to people promoted higher than their competence and risks creating reverse racism. Choosing the best candidate for promotion doesn't mean figuring you need a few different faces at the top so only selecting from a pool based on race/gender/orientation/whatever.

If a group has been historically excluded, we also need to address the systemic barriers that keep them oppressed. As you noted, many black people have become wealthy, have gone to university, have become successful, but not all are afforded that same opportunity. There are still barriers, and racial profiling by police is one of those systemic concerns that needs to be addressed. No, we shouldn't just push them through so they are represented in all facets of society; we need to get rid of the policies and behaviours and assumptions and prejudices that keep them oppressed. People need to earn it, yes, but the system that broke them also needs to help put them back together.

Racism is marginalization, devaluation and social exclusion. Systemic racism is when this marginalization and exclusion and devaluation is embedded into laws, policies, and institutional practices, which are then enacted by oblivious employees like the police who do racial profiling. Based on these definitions, reverse racism does not exist. It's actually nothing more than a bunch of white advantaged people who want to maintain their privilege.

 

[tango]

Yes, of course, because CH is not set up for me to write a thesis on racism and white privilege. lol


This is true, and if you are speaking about the atrocities from WW2 and the Jewish people who suffered in Germany and surrounding areas, there is a reason why they are (mostly) doing well. They are white and the atrocities ended. Blacks and Indigenous peoples are still going through the systemic barriers that were implemented during colonization. The system keeps most of them where they are: oppressed. If that were not true, more of them would have overcome and there would be equal representation in politics, business and other areas of society, and there would not be an over-representation of them in prisons, "projects" and ghettos.

You shouldn't. My questions were intended for readers to do a little self-reflection so they could be honest with themselves about their own biases. We all have them. We all have preconceived notions based on what we are taught (enculturation) growing up. So we make assumptions and generalize them to the whole race. Most of us are unaware of them though. But if we want to be allies to those of colour, then we need to recognize our own biases, assumptions and prejudices, and we need to see how their own colour has kept them oppressed and given us white people privilege. We do not all start in the same place.

Again, rhetorical. Food for thought. I'm not saying I'm perfect in this area or have no biases of my own, but I have taken numerous cultural sensitivity courses and trainings, and done a lot of self-reflection. It would be easy to write a thesis or two or three on this subject. All I know is that skin colour does matter, and if we don't see that, then we are contributing to their oppression. We need to take the person as a whole being in a whole community, in a whole society, in a country of policies and trends and social expectations, etc, and in a whole era of morals, etc.

If a group has been historically excluded, we also need to address the systemic barriers that keep them oppressed. As you noted, many black people have become wealthy, have gone to university, have become successful, but not all are afforded that same opportunity. There are still barriers, and racial profiling by police is one of those systemic concerns that needs to be addressed. No, we shouldn't just push them through so they are represented in all facets of society; we need to get rid of the policies and behaviours and assumptions and prejudices that keep them oppressed. People need to earn it, yes, but the system that broke them also needs to help put them back together.

Racism is marginalization, devaluation and social exclusion. Systemic racism is when this marginalization and exclusion and devaluation is embedded into laws, policies, and institutional practices, which are then enacted by oblivious employees like the police who do racial profiling. Based on these definitions, reverse racism does not exist. It's actually nothing more than a bunch of white advantaged people who want to maintain their privilege.

The trouble with all of this is that it divides things along racial lines. What about the white boy growing up in a trailer park with no father and a mother who sells herself to whoever's paying in order to pay the rent? I'm sure he'd love to enjoy some of that "white privilege" he keeps hearing about. In the meantime the black kid in his class with professional parents who care is treated as the victim when he is anything but.

What does that boy learn about what adult relationships are supposed to look like, when what he sees every night is his mother being treated like a piece of meat by one guy after another after another? What chances does he have, given the likelihood he'll be in some kind of trouble in school, when he's old enough to feel the attraction to girls while having no concept at all of ideas like consent?

Then the exact same systems you describe above keep the trailer park kid down and keep on kicking him. Except the same system that keeps kicking him also tells him he's privileged, which I'm sure helps him a lot.

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm sure he'd love to enjoy some of that "white privilege" he keeps hearing about. In the meantime the black kid in his class with professional parents who care is treated as the victim when he is anything but.

Think in more global, sociological terms. There are rich and poor in every society. Black people are under-represented in the rich world and much over-represented in the very poor world (USA). Of course there will be a handful of white kids who grow up very poor, just as there will be a handful of black kids who will have access to financial resources to give them a start in life. But they will still be racially profiled, but the white kid won't. The white kid can go for a jog without worrying about being killed or for a drive in an old junker without fear of being pulled over and shot at. But a rich black person still has those fears, and for good reason. They are routinely erroneously found guilty even when they are innocent, routinely sentenced harsher than their white counterparts, and have to work through a whole host of institutional barriers that their white counterparts don't have. And to say that blacks (and others) have more barriers does not mean there aren't some whites who also have barriers. The system is set up to keep people in their own class. Those who break the barriers are not representative of the whole.

 

[Lamb]

Think in more global, sociological terms. There are rich and poor in every society. Black people are under-represented in the rich world and much over-represented in the very poor world (USA). Of course there will be a handful of white kids who grow up very poor, just as there will be a handful of black kids who will have access to financial resources to give them a start in life. But they will still be racially profiled, but the white kid won't. The white kid can go for a jog without worrying about being killed or for a drive in an old junker without fear of being pulled over and shot at. But a rich black person still has those fears, and for good reason. They are routinely erroneously found guilty even when they are innocent, routinely sentenced harsher than their white counterparts, and have to work through a whole host of institutional barriers that their white counterparts don't have. And to say that blacks (and others) have more barriers does not mean there aren't some whites who also have barriers. The system is set up to keep people in their own class. Those who break the barriers are not representative of the whole.

My husband was racially profiled in his job with the government. He was overlooked for a promotion BECAUSE he was white and not black. That's racism.

 

[1689Dave]

My husband was racially profiled in his job with the government. He was overlooked for a promotion BECAUSE he was white and not black. That's racism.

I associate racism with hatred. I don't see that in this case. But it seems to be more of a clumsy attempt to treat all fairly.

 

[Lamb]

I associate racism with hatred. I don't see that in this case. But it seems to be more of a clumsy attempt to treat all fairly.

Racism is choosing someone based on their color, whether that's for hate or something else. My husband had the degree and the experience and should have been chosen. But a black woman, who did NOT have the degree, nor the experience OR knowledge got the job. Then she kept going to my husband for help. He got fed up with that and quit and went to the private sector where his skills and knowledge were appreciated. He's been there 25 years now.

 

[ValleyGal]

Lamb, was that due to the affirmative action movement? Or maybe the hiring manager was black, or maybe the hiring manager was giving an unskilled person a chance to get somewhere in the world. It might not have been the colour of his skin and there may have been other factors in play. Did they TELL him it was because he was white that he didn't get the job? What was their reasoning?

 

[1689Dave]

Racism is choosing someone based on their color, whether that's for hate or something else. My husband had the degree and the experience and should have been chosen. But a black woman, who did NOT have the degree, nor the experience OR knowledge got the job. Then she kept going to my husband for help. He got fed up with that and quit and went to the private sector where his skills and knowledge were appreciated. He's been there 25 years now.

It is only fair to give people of color a break.

 

[Albion]

It is only fair to give people of color a break.

a "break?" At whose expense?

And in any case, is the nation's objective to have everyone be treated in a fair and equitable manner...or is it to punish the racial majority because not everyone is equally talented, prosperous, and/or respected?