Jesus died for the sins of the world

Lamb

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Luther destroyed Pelagianism. As a Lutheran, you should know this. Shouldn't you? I teach only what Luther taught in the Bondage of the Will.

Luther believed in universal atonement and you called it Pelagianism, didn't you?
 

1689Dave

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Luther believed in universal atonement and you called it Pelagianism, didn't you?
His commentary on Romans gave his position as Limited Atonement as I posted earlier. Free Will = Pelagianism and Luther's Bondage of the Will" destroyed the notion. So it works like this. Universal Atonement doesn't save anyone, this agrees with Pelagianism which says that Christ saves no one. It takes Free Will to make it work. Luther proved there is no such thing as free will = refuting Pelagianism.
 

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His commentary on Romans gave his position as Limited Atonement as I posted earlier. Free Will = Pelagianism and Luther's Bondage of the Will" destroyed the notion. So it works like this. Universal Atonement doesn't save anyone, this agrees with Pelagianism which says that Christ saves no one. It takes Free Will to make it work. Luther proved there is no such thing as free will = refuting Pelagianism.

Universal Atonement is where Christ died and our sins are forgiven (everyone).

For it to apply to us for our personal salvation, God gives us faith to believe in what happened at the cross. You can't have subjective justification without objective justification to be true.
 

1689Dave

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Universal Atonement is where Christ died and our sins are forgiven (everyone).

For it to apply to us for our personal salvation, God gives us faith to believe in what happened at the cross. You can't have subjective justification without objective justification to be true.
This = Pelagianism in its outcome. Faith is a fruit of being saved (having the Holy Spirit), not making salvation possible for saviors of self (Pelagianism).
 

SetFree

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I recently got SXM radio and was listening to Family Talk (a Christian station). I used to understand Calvanism as sound theology but never considered myself one, but this host had me thinking. He mentioned Calvinist and refuted the claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Jesus in fact died for everyone's sin HOWEVER any individual can choose to reject His atonement if they wish and in doing so remain condemned to die the second death.
God wills that all be saved.
How then can we harmonize free will with the will of God?
I don't believe works save, I believe works are evidence of faith and that these works are charity (God being the sole witness to them).
Fruits of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit have nothing to do with works, they are God given attributes for his elected servants.
Thoughts?
The free will vs. predestination debates come from a lack of Bible understanding.

Just the fact that Satan rebelled and one third of the angels chose to rebel with him is Biblical evidence of God having given even His angels free will to love and follow Him, or not. God doesn't want robots to love Him. He wants us to love Him by our own will.

Yet God's Word has these cases where God chose certain ones to serve Him, and He directly intervened in their lives to influence their belief, and this is about the idea predestination. Apostle Paul and Jonah are two prime cases on that. Jonah tried to kill himself to get out of the duty God assigned him to go preach to the pagan city of Nineveh. And Apostle Paul was actually hunting down Christians on the road to Damascus to bring them back to Jerusalem for trial, when Jesus struck him down, blinded him, and spoke to him, and drafted him, calling Paul His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9).

The answer to all this is simple per the John 17 Scripture. In that chapter Jesus is praying to The Father. He shows that He has a group of very elect servants that belonged to The Father originally and then were given to Jesus. This first group represent those called AND chosen, His sent ones. Then Jesus mentions a second group that come to Faith in Jesus by their... word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). And then Jesus prayed that both groups become one in Him and in The Father. This second group Jesus showed represents the majority of us, who are 'called' only, but not a chosen apostle.

A problem is that some country preachers get up at the podium and teach the second group are also 'chosen' and predestinated like Christ's Apostles. Most of us are not, but are 'called' only, pointing to the second group in John 17.

What is the main... difference between those 'chosen' vs. those 'called' only?

Those 'chosen', like Paul, the apostles, even like Jonah, have a duty to do and cannot get out of it. God will force them back in line to His purpose for them even if they begin stray. Jonah was a major example of that, God even making the great fish that swallowed Jonah spit him up on the shore right before Nineveh. These 'sent ones', which is the meaning of the word 'apostle', cannot be turned. Jesus even said in John 17 that He sent these into the world, and were not of this world.

But the 'called' only, that believe by the sent apostle's preaching of The Gospel, which is the majority of us believers, must hold onto our Faith by our own free will, asking God's help. Many won't pray and ask The Father, but will listen to men's doctrines instead, and be deceived, especially at the end. If they were 'chosen' like the apostles, they could never fall away.
 

Lamb

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This = Pelagianism in its outcome. Faith is a fruit of being saved (having the Holy Spirit), not making salvation possible for saviors of self (Pelagianism).

Faith is a gift from God. Being saved is completely by God, not something that comes from within us.

The PROMISE of the Savior in Genesis was God's 1st step for salvation.
The BIRTH of Jesus was the 2nd step for salvation.
The PERFECTLY OBEDIENT LIFE of Jesus could be considered the 3rd step for salvation.
Jesus' DEATH on the cross for the forgiveness of sins is the next step for salvation.
Jesus' RESURRECTION is the next step for salvation....

But the final step is when Jesus comes again with glory on Judgment Day....that is when we receive the salvation that comes by grace through faith (a gift).

Universal atonement has nothing to do with us being a part of our salvation. You haven't proven that point which you keep claiming yet in this thread at all.
 

1689Dave

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Faith is a gift from God. Being saved is completely by God, not something that comes from within us.

The PROMISE of the Savior in Genesis was God's 1st step for salvation.
The BIRTH of Jesus was the 2nd step for salvation.
The PERFECTLY OBEDIENT LIFE of Jesus could be considered the 3rd step for salvation.
Jesus' DEATH on the cross for the forgiveness of sins is the next step for salvation.
Jesus' RESURRECTION is the next step for salvation....

But the final step is when Jesus comes again with glory on Judgment Day....that is when we receive the salvation that comes by grace through faith (a gift).

Universal atonement has nothing to do with us being a part of our salvation. You haven't proven that point which you keep claiming yet in this thread at all.
Universal atonement doesn't save anyone. It dumps it in your lap, no matter how you try to make it sound biblical. It's Pelagianism.
 

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Universal atonement doesn't save anyone. It dumps it in your lap, no matter how you try to make it sound biblical. It's Pelagianism.

Could you prove HOW it dumps it into the person's lap when it objectively states that Jesus forgives sin? Now how does it put it on the person? God gives faith to believe in that forgiveness, it doesn't come from man. Man can't choose to justify himself.
 

1689Dave

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Could you prove HOW it dumps it into the person's lap when it objectively states that Jesus forgives sin? Now how does it put it on the person? God gives faith to believe in that forgiveness, it doesn't come from man. Man can't choose to justify himself.
Let's see, if Jesus died for all and all are not saved, it must be up to you to save yourself by jumping through certain hoops?
 

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Let's see, if Jesus died for all and all are not saved, it must be up to you to save yourself by jumping through certain hoops?

How could anyone save himself? You still haven't proven that Universal Atonement is back in the person's lap when it's up to God to do the saving. Not man. We can't save ourselves in any way, shape or form.
 

1689Dave

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How could anyone save himself? You still haven't proven that Universal Atonement is back in the person's lap when it's up to God to do the saving. Not man. We can't save ourselves in any way, shape or form.
If it doesn't save anyone, who saved you other than you?
 

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If it doesn't save anyone, who saved you other than you?

Universal Atonement is a step toward salvation...a step that God has taken. When we die, that's when we either receive the promised salvation or we damn ourselves by rejecting God and the forgiveness won at the cross.

So please, tell me now HOW Universal Atonement means that man is his own savior because you have yet to prove that point.
 

1689Dave

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Universal Atonement is a step toward salvation...a step that God has taken. When we die, that's when we either receive the promised salvation or we damn ourselves by rejecting God and the forgiveness won at the cross.

So please, tell me now HOW Universal Atonement means that man is his own savior because you have yet to prove that point.
= you are the savior, not Jesus. = Pelagianism
 

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= you are the savior, not Jesus. = Pelagianism

Instead of repeating yourself, explain it thoroughly. You have yet to do that and we're all waiting.
 

1689Dave

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Instead of repeating yourself, explain it thoroughly. You have yet to do that and we're all waiting.
Pelagius taught that Jesus saved no one. Universal atonement teaches exactly the same or all would be saved. Pelagius taught that people save themselves through obedience. Universal atonement teaches the same. Therefore Universal atonement is Pelagianism. Luther proved Free Will is a lie.
 

Josiah

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You teach salvation by works.


How silly.


AGAIN, as you know, as everyone knows, Pelagianism states that justification (narrow) requires that WE do things, things WE can do on our own. Now, as you know, as everyone knows, Universal Atonement is the echo of what so many Scriptures so clearly, obviously, boldly state: Jesus died for all. Now, read those words again: JESUS DIED FOR ALL.

Now, please quote the words there that state, YOU MUST DO. Because I don't see those words. The words I see are JESUS DIED FOR ALL. You can't, you cannot support your absurd accusation because I never said any such thing. You know that. You prove it by not being able to quote me saying that.

And Dave, the people here at CH know well that for years, I (and all the Lutherans here) have repudiated in the boldest way any form of Pelagianism so they read what you posted and just laugh at you.




Here's the verses that teach that Jesus died for all:


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state that Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknowable few:

crickets




It's basically what Luther taught in his "Bondage of the Will"


I've read Bondage of the Will. And it does NOT teach Limited Atonement or Pelagianism which is why you don't quote the book teaching either. You are not telling the truth, and IF you've read that book, you know that.

Again, your dubious quote from Luther in 1515 (you chose not to say WHEN he wrote that) is worthless. We all know that for some time, Luther was developing his theology which is why it's critical to DATE quotes (as well as place them in context). You do neither. I gave you a very, very typical quote form 1533 that is solidly, boldly, undeniably a proclamation of Universal Atonement.






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1689Dave

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How silly.


AGAIN, as you know, as everyone knows, Pelagianism states that justification (narrow) requires that WE do things, things WE can do on our own. Now, as you know, as everyone knows, Universal Atonement is the echo of what so many Scriptures so clearly, obviously, boldly state: Jesus died for all. Now, read those words again: JESUS DIED FOR ALL.

Now, please quote the words there that state, YOU MUST DO. Because I don't see those words. The words I see are JESUS DIED FOR ALL. You can't, you cannot support your absurd accusation because I never said any such thing. You know that. You prove it by not being able to quote me saying that.

And Dave, the people here at CH know well that for years, I (and all the Lutherans here) have repudiated in the boldest way any form of Pelagianism so they read what you posted and just laugh at you.




Here's the verses that teach that Jesus died for all:


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.


Here are the verses that state that Jesus did not die for all but only for some unknowable few:

crickets




.
It says God so loved the world = not people but the Kosmos.
 

Josiah

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It says God so loved the world = not people but the Kosmos.

Ah, so you hold that Jesus died for a planet (or perhaps the universe). Not people. How absurd. How laughable. How very unchristian.

So you are insisting that all those verses that state "Jesus died for all" refers to all the planets of the universe? :giggle: How desperate you are, how silly your apologetic has become.

You are just saying absurd things everyone here knows are wrong.... all it seems to evade a very obvious point: Scripture teaches that Jesus died for all, and you deny what Scripture says, insisting the opposite is true, saying you have "all those Scriptures" that state "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few" but obviously you can't find any such verse (much less "all" of them). You just aren't telling the truth. You are just denying what the Bible so obviously says. And bringing up all kinds of absurd, silly arguments that have nothing to do with the topic, accusing us of things EVERYONE KNOWS we don't believe.




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Ah, so you hold that Jesus died for a planet (or perhaps the universe). Not people. How absurd. How laughable. How very unchristian.

You are just saying absurd things everyone here knows are wrong.... all it seems to evade a very obvious point: Scripture teaches that Jesus died for all, and you deny what Scripture says, insisting the opposite is true, saying you have "all those Scriptures" that state "Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some unknown few" but obviously you can't find any such verse (much less "all" of them). You just aren't telling the truth. You are just denying what the Bible so obviously says. And bringing up all kinds of absurd, silly arguments that have nothing to do with the topic, accusing us of things EVERYONE KNOWS we don't believe.




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If you read the passage carefully, it says God so loved the Kosmos that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. It is the believer's eternal home when recreated after the end of the world. You what it to say whoever CHOOSES to believe, but it does not say that. Belief is a characteristic of the saved.
 

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If you read the passage carefully, it says God so loved the Kosmos

@1689Dave


I reject your laughable (and very unchristian) view that Jesus did not die for people but for planets.



You what it to say whoever CHOOSES to believe


You have no clue what I WANT to say, but you do know what I've said. And never - not once, not since I was 16 - have I ever said that someone chooses to believe. Nor is that the topic of this thread. Universal Atonement is that "JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE." It echos, verbatim, what so many Scriptures obviously and undeniably state. Read that: 'JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE." Read it out loud, read the words. Perhaps more than once. Then underline the words there: "who chooses to believe." Try it, you'll discover something.



His commentary on Romans gave his position as Limited Atonement as I posted earlier.

It's from 1515.

And it's very disputed that he remotely meant that Scriptures were wrong on this point. Dave, you may know little about the Reformation, but Luther's generally is regarded to have BEGUN in 1517 (not on or before 1515) and took perhaps a decade (in some details, more) before he developed Lutheran theology. It changed and evolved and developed over a period of a decade or so. I gave you a very representative quote from 1533. And it is a bold, clear, undeniable embrace of Universal Atonement. You just ignored it.

I don't know what source you got that from, but I am certain why they didn't give the date. Seems pretty deceptive, but you swallowed it. Worked on you. Some of us know to check the date. So we are not being taken in by deceivers, as it seems you were.

And Dave, yes, I've read Luther's "Bondage of the Will." And you are wrong, he does NOT teach Limited Atonement in that book.

This is written by a Calvinist: Luther on Limited Atonement Revisited



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