Tongues and the Signs and Wonders Ceased, here’s why

1689Dave

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Tongues and the Signs and Wonders Ceased, here’s why​



“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10)

What is the “Perfect”? It means complete, in Greek.​



“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17) This passage carries with it the definition of perfection and completeness.

How did scripture outperform tongues in the first century? Peter said they heard the Father speak audibly in the mount. But then said scripture is better.

“And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation: for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:18–21 (NCPB)

So we see that Peter preferred scripture to tongues back when they really spoke in tongues. So when did the scriptures become the completed word of God?

The simple answer is: When John finished Revelation, the New Covenant scripture became complete. And from about that time tongues vanishes from Church history. Only one or two questionable sects claimed the gift. But no eyewitness accounts of it remain to date. It’s always hearsay with no first-hand accounts.

If you want more from scripture, consider this.

Many think tongues will end at the end of the world. But this is not the case. Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

And after that happens, He says; "and now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge, which are to end, with love faith and hope which remain. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

Paul also said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation [apocalypse] of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

So we were to look for a Revelation [apocalypse] that would also confirm you unto the end. That is, there would be a revelation that would happen to confirm believers to the end, followed by the final revelation, the apocalypse at the end of the world.

John calls his book “The Revelation [apocalypse] of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

Paul uses the same words. Calling it The Revelation of Jesus Christ that would also confirm us to the end. So was this the revelation Paul said was the cut-off point for seeking the gifts? History confirms the gifts ceased before and around the time of John’s Revelation.

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. But today’s Charismatics suggest they did. Or all would have remained like the first-century church throughout history. But early on, God removed the gifts as Paul said.

In the times of the Epistles, Paul had many sick friends he did not heal. But gave them medicine instead.

One reason today’s claims of having the gifts are fraudulent is, the gifts came spontaneously in the first-century Church. But today Charismatics learn to mimic the gifts but have no fruit. Today’s “gifts” are powerless when compared to the originals where they raised the dead. Healed twisted limbs, birth defects, etc. The originals would become worldwide news every night if God still provided them. We see no evidence of the gifts in the pandemic.

Another reason today’s claims are fraudulent is, first-century tongue speakers knew what they were saying. Today’s tongue speakers haven’t a clue. The proof is that original tongue speakers edified themselves by speaking in tongues. Paul says the basis for edification is in knowing what is said. So they knew what they were saying. They interpreted tongues the same way a preacher interprets the bible, or the Supreme Court interprets the law. Interpret means they explained the meaning.

A big problem is, only the Apostles could give the gifts through their hands. The only exception was at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and they spoke with tongues. And 7 years later at Cornelius’ house. The gifts were in fact a sign of Apostleship Hebrews 2:4. All other occurrences of the gifts passed through the Apostle’s hands.

Following is a list of the Holy Spirit Baptism and the effects in Acts. Notice that most did not speak in tongues

The Gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and thereafter



Given directly to the 12 Apostles

They spoke in tongues, prophesied, and performed signs and wonders in Acts

Given to Philip and Stephen by the Apostles.

They worked signs and wonders

Given to the Samaritans by the Apostles

Given directly to Paul being a sign of an Apostle


He worked signs and wonders

Baptism of the Holy Spirit Given to the Ephesians by Paul the Apostle

They spoke in tongues and prophesied

Given directly to the Gentiles at Cornelius' house

they spoke in tongues and magnified God

Apart from these instances, none are said to speak in tongues.





Christianity Haven “Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).
 
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SetFree

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The OP is pushing wishful thinking from the devil himself by making the false claim that The Holy Spirit is not active anymore in Christ's Church.


The following prophecy is for the very end of this world by Lord Jesus...

Mark 13:7-11
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV


The Acts 2 example below is a prophecy from the Book of Joel 2 about The Spirit speaking through God's people at the end of this world (see the final verses of Joel 2 which Apostle Peter quoted on Pentecost day.)

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV


So BEWARE of those deceived that try to say The Holy Spirit is no longer active in Christ's Church today.
 

Albion

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So BEWARE of those deceived that try to say The Holy Spirit is no longer active in Christ's Church today.
He didn't say that the Holy Spirit is no longer active in Christ's church today.
 

Lamb

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The OP is pushing wishful thinking from the devil himself by making the false claim that The Holy Spirit is not active anymore in Christ's Church.


The following prophecy is for the very end of this world by Lord Jesus...

Mark 13:7-11
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV


The Acts 2 example below is a prophecy from the Book of Joel 2 about The Spirit speaking through God's people at the end of this world (see the final verses of Joel 2 which Apostle Peter quoted on Pentecost day.)

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV


So BEWARE of those deceived that try to say The Holy Spirit is no longer active in Christ's Church today.

The OP did not say that. Your disagreement is in the method that the Holy Spirit works.
 

Joelightening

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The OP is pushing wishful thinking from the devil himself by making the false claim that The Holy Spirit is not active anymore in Christ's Church.


The following prophecy is for the very end of this world by Lord Jesus...

Mark 13:7-11
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV


The Acts 2 example below is a prophecy from the Book of Joel 2 about The Spirit speaking through God's people at the end of this world (see the final verses of Joel 2 which Apostle Peter quoted on Pentecost day.)

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV


So BEWARE of those deceived that try to say The Holy Spirit is no longer active in Christ's Church today.
I love the Holy Spirit and Christ and the Father. God is very active in the Church with those who are his own.

Only those who experience the gifts understand them. The first time I heard someone speak with tongues, I thought she was mentally ill. That changed when I spoke in tongues.
 

Albion

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When the large number of charismatic Christians who believe that they speak in tongues because they've been gifted by the Holy Ghost start exhibiting some of the other gifts, I will rethink part of what I feel about the claims.

After all, whether we believe a person who claims he's received the gift of tongues, or if we think he's just making sounds which almost anyone can make (especially if he's been taught how to do it as is often the case)...

it's the easiest of the gifts to counterfeit. We cannot deny that.
 

1689Dave

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When the large number of charismatic Christians who believe that they speak in tongues because they've been gifted by the Holy Ghost start exhibiting some of the other gifts, I will rethink part of what I feel about the claims.

After all, whether we believe a person who claims he's received the gift of tongues, or if we think he's just making sounds which almost anyone can make (especially if he's been taught how to do it as is often the case)...

it's the easiest of the gifts to counterfeit. We cannot deny that.
Here's the skinny. Paul says that understanding what is said edifies. He said those who spoke in tongues were edified. But today's "tongue" speakers do not know what they are saying. This is proof the movement is false.
 

Lamb

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Here's the skinny. Paul says that understanding what is said edifies. He said those who spoke in tongues were edified. But today's "tongue" speakers do not know what they are saying. This is proof the movement is false.

I agree with this. God wouldn't keep His people in the dark.
 

Joelightening

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I agree with this. God wouldn't keep His people in the dark.
Far fewer people speak in tongues than the number who claim to speak in tongues. People who truly speak in tongues do not know what the Spirit is uttering (saying). This is why there is a need for the gift of interpretation of tongues. This should be obvious about tongues on the day of Pentecost as written in Acts. The disciples there were all native to Israel. They did not know the foreign languages spoken by the Holy Spirit. Natives from other countries knew their own native language. They recognized their own language and did not need an interpretation. The disciples did not understand those languages.
 

Joelightening

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When the large number of charismatic Christians who believe that they speak in tongues because they've been gifted by the Holy Ghost start exhibiting some of the other gifts, I will rethink part of what I feel about the claims.

After all, whether we believe a person who claims he's received the gift of tongues, or if we think he's just making sounds which almost anyone can make (especially if he's been taught how to do it as is often the case)...

it's the easiest of the gifts to counterfeit. We cannot deny that.
It would be nice to meet someone with the gift of healing. I have a really bad case of cancer and sure could use healing right about now.
 

1689Dave

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It would be nice to meet someone with the gift of healing. I have a really bad case of cancer and sure could use healing right about now.
The prayer of faith will heal the sick according to James. But the mighty signs and wonders exhibited by the Apostles ended with them. I knew a Baptist guy when I was a kid. Later I heard his daughter had a hole in her skull covered with a steel plate. It seems prayer was involved and one night her head began bleeding and they took her to the hospital. Her skull was growing back together pushing the steel plate out. Don't listen to just anybody, and don't limit how God heals. We have medical science today foretold in Daniel's closing verses.
 

Joelightening

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The prayer of faith will heal the sick according to James. But the mighty signs and wonders exhibited by the Apostles ended with them. I knew a Baptist guy when I was a kid. Later I heard his daughter had a hole in her skull covered with a steel plate. It seems prayer was involved and one night her head began bleeding and they took her to the hospital. Her skull was growing back together pushing the steel plate out. Don't listen to just anybody, and don't limit how God heals. We have medical science today foretold in Daniel's closing verses.
Thanks for offering encouragement. I currently take chemo therapy. It has worked wonders to take away the pain and reduce the cancer. I thank God for that! However there is no known cure for this(pancreatic cancer). Most people do not live 2 years. I have lived more than 14 months with it. Only God can cure this. I believe he will cure it in his own time. To say that God no longer does miracles is not true. He has in very recent history healed. He gave my aunt twins when the doctors said she could not conceive children. My mother told her not to get a hysterectomy. The doctors wanted her to get one.
 

1689Dave

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Thanks for offering encouragement. I currently take chemo therapy. It has worked wonders to take away the pain and reduce the cancer. I thank God for that! However there is no known cure for this(pancreatic cancer). Most people do not live 2 years. I have lived more than 14 months with it. Only God can cure this. I believe he will cure it in his own time. To say that God no longer does miracles is not true. He has in very recent history healed. He gave my aunt twins when the doctors said she could not conceive children. My mother told her not to get a hysterectomy. The doctors wanted her to get one.
You are in my prayers and a great inspiration to me. I've had healing based on a prayer from time to time as James says.
 

SetFree

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Far fewer people speak in tongues than the number who claim to speak in tongues. People who truly speak in tongues do not know what the Spirit is uttering (saying). This is why there is a need for the gift of interpretation of tongues. This should be obvious about tongues on the day of Pentecost as written in Acts. The disciples there were all native to Israel. They did not know the foreign languages spoken by the Holy Spirit. Natives from other countries knew their own native language. They recognized their own language and did not need an interpretation. The disciples did not understand those languages.
But why must so many brethren immediately default to the idea of speaking in tongues when talking about The Holy Spirit working in our lives today? Biblically, there is no evidence that the 'cloven' tongue sounded like gibberish that no one present could understand. I challenge anyone to show me Scripture in Acts 2 where no one understood what the Apostles spoke via the cloven tongue.

One of the main purposes for The Holy Spirit Working in our lives today as believers on Jesus Christ is as our Teacher and Comforter per Jesus in the Book of John. Jesus said He would send The Holy Spirit and He would teach us all things. That is not about the idea of speaking in tongues, it's about being given understanding by The Holy Spirit. The idea of speaking the cloven tongue is one of the least of spiritual gifts according to Apostle Paul, and certainly not the most important one. So I wish more brethren would get back to what The Bible actually teaches instead of listening to some men's hype.
 

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But why must so many brethren immediately default to the idea of speaking in tongues when talking about The Holy Spirit working in our lives today? Biblically, there is no evidence that the 'cloven' tongue sounded like gibberish that no one present could understand. I challenge anyone to show me Scripture in Acts 2 where no one understood what the Apostles spoke via the cloven tongue.

One of the main purposes for The Holy Spirit Working in our lives today as believers on Jesus Christ is as our Teacher and Comforter per Jesus in the Book of John. Jesus said He would send The Holy Spirit and He would teach us all things. That is not about the idea of speaking in tongues, it's about being given understanding by The Holy Spirit. The idea of speaking the cloven tongue is one of the least of spiritual gifts according to Apostle Paul, and certainly not the most important one. So I wish more brethren would get back to what The Bible actually teaches instead of listening to some men's hype.

The Holy Spirit will always point the way to Christ as Savior.
 

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Tongues and the Signs and Wonders Ceased, here’s why​



“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10)

What is the “Perfect”? It means complete, in Greek.​



“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17) This passage carries with it the definition of perfection and completeness.

How did scripture outperform tongues in the first century? Peter said they heard the Father speak audibly in the mount. But then said scripture is better.

“And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation: for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:18–21 (NCPB)

So we see that Peter preferred scripture to tongues back when they really spoke in tongues. So when did the scriptures become the completed word of God?

The simple answer is: When John finished Revelation, the New Covenant scripture became complete. And from about that time tongues vanishes from Church history. Only one or two questionable sects claimed the gift. But no eyewitness accounts of it remain to date. It’s always hearsay with no first-hand accounts.

If you want more from scripture, consider this.

Many think tongues will end at the end of the world. But this is not the case. Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

And after that happens, He says; "and now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge, which are to end, with love faith and hope which remain. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

Paul also said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation [apocalypse] of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

So we were to look for a Revelation [apocalypse] that would also confirm you unto the end. That is, there would be a revelation that would happen to confirm believers to the end, followed by the final revelation, the apocalypse at the end of the world.

John calls his book “The Revelation [apocalypse] of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

Paul uses the same words. Calling it The Revelation of Jesus Christ that would also confirm us to the end. So was this the revelation Paul said was the cut-off point for seeking the gifts? History confirms the gifts ceased before and around the time of John’s Revelation.

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. But today’s Charismatics suggest they did. Or all would have remained like the first-century church throughout history. But early on, God removed the gifts as Paul said.

In the times of the Epistles, Paul had many sick friends he did not heal. But gave them medicine instead.

One reason today’s claims of having the gifts are fraudulent is, the gifts came spontaneously in the first-century Church. But today Charismatics learn to mimic the gifts but have no fruit. Today’s “gifts” are powerless when compared to the originals where they raised the dead. Healed twisted limbs, birth defects, etc. The originals would become worldwide news every night if God still provided them. We see no evidence of the gifts in the pandemic.

Another reason today’s claims are fraudulent is, first-century tongue speakers knew what they were saying. Today’s tongue speakers haven’t a clue. The proof is that original tongue speakers edified themselves by speaking in tongues. Paul says the basis for edification is in knowing what is said. So they knew what they were saying. They interpreted tongues the same way a preacher interprets the bible, or the Supreme Court interprets the law. Interpret means they explained the meaning.

A big problem is, only the Apostles could give the gifts through their hands. The only exception was at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and they spoke with tongues. And 7 years later at Cornelius’ house. The gifts were in fact a sign of Apostleship Hebrews 2:4. All other occurrences of the gifts passed through the Apostle’s hands.

Following is a list of the Holy Spirit Baptism and the effects in Acts. Notice that most did not speak in tongues

The Gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and thereafter



Given directly to the 12 Apostles

They spoke in tongues, prophesied, and performed signs and wonders in Acts

Given to Philip and Stephen by the Apostles.

They worked signs and wonders

Given to the Samaritans by the Apostles

Given directly to Paul being a sign of an Apostle


He worked signs and wonders

Baptism of the Holy Spirit Given to the Ephesians by Paul the Apostle

They spoke in tongues and prophesied

Given directly to the Gentiles at Cornelius' house

they spoke in tongues and magnified God

Apart from these instances, none are said to speak in tongues.





Christianity Haven “Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).
Another theological controversy - so many in so few posts!

On this matter you have my sympathy because when I watch YouTube videos of tongues from the platform, the Holy Spirit hokey pokey, and people falling down onto the floor and laughing almost hysterically I'd rather say it was all a terrible sham and disassociate myself entirely from such goings on.
 
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