Your political views

[prism]

I always go with the party that sheds the least amount of innocent blood.

Does that include abortion?

 

[1689Dave]

Does that include abortion?

Yes. But sometimes a political party will shed more innocent blood in war than the abortionists.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

It's just a theoretical issue, then, but in order to adhere to your standards you'd have two possible choices on Election Day--Libertarian Party or Constitution Party.

My understanding is that the Constitution Party is pretty much libertarian with Biblical values. This leads me to wonder where Libertarians stand on abortion. If they do not understand it Biblically they may see it as a liberty.

 

[tango]

My understanding is that the Constitution Party is pretty much libertarian with Biblical values. This leads me to wonder where Libertarians stand on abortion. If they do not understand it Biblically they may see it as a liberty.

My guess would be that some libertarians would see it as a matter of freedom for the mother while others would see abortion as a clear violation of the rights of the unborn. As with just about every other discussion about abortion the underlying issue is whether that thing in the womb is a bunch of cells or a human in its own right. The way you answer that question would determine whether you see it primarily as an issue of the mother's freedom or the unborn's rights.

 

[tango]

That approach would not satisfy an anarchist, however, It would describe a conservative, of course, but not an anarchist. I do know of self-described anarchists who believe that there would still be government but limited to preventing the use of force or fraud against other people, so I guess we'd have to decide if that qualifies as anarchism or not.

I guess a lot would depend on the anarchist. As you say so much depends on the precise definition of "anarchist". Which leads on to...

What you are addressing here is whether or not anarchism is practical, or even possible. Most people, including you and I, would insist that it's not. Nevertheless, there are people who think it is.

I think you and I agree that "no rules at all" doesn't work unless you are either very rich or very powerful, because it turns into totalitarianism where the only question is who gets to write the rule book. Which leads back to the question of what counts as anarchism - since absolute anarchism is all but guaranteed to turn into totalitarianism (pretty much the precise opposite of anarchism) the question becomes one of how many rules can be in place before a system ceases to count as anarchism.

 

[Albion]

My understanding is that the Constitution Party is pretty much libertarian with Biblical values.

That wouldn't be accurate. The Constitution Party is oldline conservative, patriotic, but with also a commitment to the Christian faith (as you said) and the US Constitution. There are some similarities between the CP and the Libertarians, but the Libertarian Party is focused on maximizing personal liberty as it sees that matter, with free enterprise of course, legalizing drug use and sale, open borders, and with strong support for the LGBT cause. It's split on the matter of abortion, however, although it was in favor of abortion on demand until recently. It has now pared that platform plank back somewhat.

This leads me to wonder where Libertarians stand on abortion. If they do not understand it Biblically they may see it as a liberty.

You're looking at it correctly, but the problem is that people who value personal liberty can see that particular matter either way. That is to say, "My body my Choice" is the way some members look at it, while others are pro-life because they argue that the woman doesn't have the liberty of denying the right to life of another person, the unborn child.

 

[prism]

Yes. But sometimes a political party will shed more innocent blood in war than the abortionists.

63 million since 1973? I highly doubt it.

 

[Albion]

63 million since 1973? I highly doubt it.

Good point, but both Democrats and Republicans have gotten to be quite willing to go to war, so that anyone who thinks we ought to stop trying to be the policeman of the world doesn't have much of a choice on Election Day.

At one moment, one of these parties may be in favor of some overseas military action and their opposite number might campaign against it, only to have the sides reverse a few years later when there are problems in some new area of the globe.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

That wouldn't be accurate. The Constitution Party is oldline conservative, patriotic, but with also a commitment to the Christian faith (as you said) and the US Constitution.

I believe the Constitution Party has also gone under the name of The Taxpayer Party. We have a Taxpayer Party candidate on our ballot right now, for county sheriff. No Republilcan, just the incumbent Democrat, a Libertarian, and a Taxpayer Party candidate (actually listed as U.S. Taxpayers). I was told the Taxpayer candidate is pro life. Don't know about the others.

 

[prism]

Good point, but both Democrats and Republicans have gotten to be quite willing to go to war, so that anyone who thinks we ought to stop trying to be the policeman of the world doesn't have much of a choice on Election Day.

At one moment, one of these parties may be in favor of some overseas military action and their opposite number might campaign against it, only to have the sides reverse a few years later when there are problems in some new area of the globe.

That may be true but the line of thought started with1689 Dave stating that he goes with the party that sheds the least blood and from there..

Does that include abortion?

Yes. But sometimes a political party will shed more innocent blood in war than the abortionists.

63 million since 1973? I highly doubt it.

I'm not sure how your statement ties in with the foregoing.
But to your point, maybe we need to 'police' ourselves

 

[1689Dave]

63 million since 1973? I highly doubt it.

We need the war death figures before we can compare. When Bush was bombing Iraq I think the innocent bloodshed far outnumbered the abortion rates on a daily basis. Don't you?

 

[Albion]

I believe the Constitution Party has also gone under the name of The Taxpayer Party. We have a Taxpayer Party candidate on our ballot right now, for county sheriff. No Republilcan, just the incumbent Democrat, a Libertarian, and a Taxpayer Party candidate (actually listed as U.S. Taxpayers). I was told the Taxpayer candidate is pro life. Don't know about the others.

Almost no Democratic candidate is pro-life these days, and almost no Republican candidate is not.

The US Taxpayers Party is the Michigan affiliate of the Constitution Party and is solidly pro-life; I wouldn't think that the party would nominate, at its state convention, a candidate for any office who wasn't pro-life.

 

[1689Dave]

Almost no Democratic candidate is pro-life these days, and almost no Republican candidate is not.

The US Taxpayers Party is the Michigan affiliate of the Constitution Party and is solidly pro-life; I wouldn't think that the party would nominate, at its state convention, a candidate for any office who wasn't pro-life.

Do you think the influx of Catholics from the south of the border will eventually vote Democrats out of office?

 

[Albion]

Do you think the influx of Catholics from the south of the border will eventually vote Democrats out of office?

Hard to say. Democrats have long thought that Hispanic immigrants would favor the Democratic Party because of its support for easy immigration, welfare programs, and so on, but lately the polls have been showing that open borders don't go down so well with Hispanic immigrants because many of them left their homes in order to escape Marxism, gangs, and high crime. As a result, there seems to be a swing towards the GOP among Hispanics going on at present.

In addition, family values and religious faith appear to be holding strong in Hispanic communities in America just as hostility towards those values is becoming more acceptable on the Far Left of American politics.

 

[prism]

Do you think the influx of Catholics from the south of the border will eventually vote Democrats out of office?

Interesting take

 

[Josiah]

Yes. But sometimes a political party will shed more innocent blood in war than the abortionists.

Wrong.

420,000 Americans died in all of World War II (including civilians)
630,000 Americans died in legal abortions in 2019 (the last year for stats).


There have been over 63,000,000 legal abortions in the US since 1973. Over 63 million abortions have occurred in the US since Roe v. Wade decision in 1973


.

 

[1689Dave]

Wrong.

420,000 Americans died in all of World War II (including civilians)
630,000 Americans died in legal abortions in 2019 (the last year for stats).


There have been over 63,000,000 legal abortions in the US since 1973. Over 63 million abortions have occurred in the US since Roe v. Wade decision in 1973


.

How many "Christians" died killing "Christians" among the war dead? In one day, how many did Bush kill in Iraq compared to worldwide abortions?

 

[Lanman87]

As I've gotten older I've cared less and less about politics. I still vote, but I haven't openly campaigned for any candidate in years.

I just think it is important to remember that there is a higher calling for Christians than politics. To often, in the past, I would make politics more important than walking in faith and living out my faith by focusing on loving God and loving others.

Also, the realization that in the end none of it will matter has made it less important to me. All the Kingdoms of the Earth will pass away, including the USA.

 

[Albion]

As I've gotten older I've cared less and less about politics. I still vote, but I haven't openly campaigned for any candidate in years.

I just think it is important to remember that there is a higher calling for Christians than politics. To often, in the past, I would make politics more important than walking in faith and living out my faith by focusing on loving God and loving others.

Also, the realization that in the end none of it will matter has made it less important to me. All the Kingdoms of the Earth will pass away, including the USA.

I have to wonder how ordinary Germans who lived through the Hitler era, war, and invasion by the Russians as well as the US and UK would have evaluated your perspective.

After all, the Germans were Christians in the main and knew that the kingdoms of this world would pass away sooner or later, so if everything that happened to them and their countrymen during those dark days might have been averted, would they say it really didn't matter one way or the other?

 

[Lanman87]

I have to wonder how ordinary Germans who lived through the Hitler era, war, and invasion by the Russians as well as the US and UK would have evaluated your perspective.

After all, the Germans were Christians in the main and knew that the kingdoms of this world would pass away sooner or later, so if everything that happened to them and their countrymen during those dark days might have been averted, would they say it really didn't matter one way or the other?

The German people were brainwashed and those who weren't brainwashed were bullied into following Hitler. Yet, you can still find plenty of examples of Christian's living out their faith in Nazi Germany. Either by helping Jews by hiding them or helping them escape or other acts of love and compassion. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is probably the most famous because of his writings and public opposition to Hitler's killing handicapped and mentally ill people. Those faithful Christians understood that their faithfulness to God and His Kingdom was more important than being a German or what happened to the German government.

If America becomes an oppressive regime then I pray that I have the faith of those faithful Germans, who risked their life serving God and showing His love toward others.

My point is not that politics isn't important. It is that "Kingdom Citizenship" transcends whatever government is in power. If the government is friendly to Christians then great, we will take that opportunity to preach, teach, and live out our faith in Christ. If the government is hostile to Christians the we still preach, teach and live out our faith in Christ. Living out that faith may mean publicly calling out the government knowing that we will likely be jailed or killed, which is what Bonhoeffer did in Germany.

So yes, Go vote and hope the party of your choice wins. But also understand that if they lose the Kingdom of God will still go on forever. And that ultimately, the eternal Kingdom of God will last forever and the temporal kingdoms of this world we be no more.