Do you believe in the rapture?

[Prepared]

I am reading a book by David Jeremiah and in it he talks about the rapture and about a 7 year tribulation period.
I have heard this before and that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation period and then the second coming happens later.
Some have suggested that the rapture is invisible but I don't believe that.

Do you believe in the rapture? Is it something different in your opinion than the second coming?
Please support your thoughts with scripture.

I believe that at the return of Christ he will simultaneously take his people that are still alive and remain as written in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 on Earth up to him as he is descending down to earth.

that is what the modern day churches terms as the rapture those that are on earth and taken up to Christ.

When will this occur some are taught and believe pre-tribulation - some are taught and believe mid tribulation - some are taught and believed post tribulation.

I believe the church will be here throughout the entire great tribulation period.

Scriptures such as 2 Thessalonians 2:3 where Paul says that day will not come until there is a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition is used to support pre-tribulation rapture citing that the man of sin is Judas. I disbelieve that Judas had already been revealed before Paul even became a part of the spreading of the Gospel. The man of sin is the Antichrist and when he is revealed the tribulation starts there after.

Another scripture first Corinthians 15:52 tells us in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised and corruptible is also used to support pre-tribulation rapture but going to Revelations 11:15-19 when the 7th, the last trumpet sounds it tells us the kingdoms of the Earth has become the kingdoms of God and Christ will reign forever and how the nations are angry, because his wrath is here and the time of the dead has begun by judgement.

There are many reports that John Nelson Darby & Edward Irving is responsible for the spreading of pre-tribulation rapture - along with the vision of 15 year old Margaret McDonald in the 19th century. Teachings which became very famous in the 20th century. Before then it wasn't taught in churches.

 

[SetFree]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). Saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). See “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves despite the failed prophecies surrounding them, millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims that have no scripture supporting them.

Sorry, but those authors you quote were grossly misled, and misled many others along with themselves. God's Word DOES... specifically teach the idea of a 'rapture' at Christ's future coming, and also the TIME of His future coming in relation to the tribulation period at the end of this world.

1. 'rapture' - that word is not in the Greek. It is a derivative from Latin of the Greek word harpazo. The Greek word harpazo is translated to "caught up" in the KJV Bible. Greek harpazo means to seize. The harpazo event was taught by Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 specifically in relation to the day of Christ's future coming to gather His saints.

2. Apostle Paul on teaching the "caught up" idea in 1 Thessalonians 4 got that teaching from Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus taught that 'immediately AFTER' the tribulation, the peoples on earth will see Him coming in the clouds, and He will send His angels to gather His saints from 2 places, one group being the 'asleep' saints Paul said He brings with Him when He comes, and the other group of saints being those still alive on earth when He comes.

3. the so-called 'rapture' idea is about Christ's coming and sending His angels to gather His saints that are still alive on earth. That is the group that will be "caught up" according to Paul.

4. because Lord Jesus showed that gathering of His saints event is to occur immediately AFTER... the tribulation of those days, that points specifically to a Post-tribulational coming by Jesus Christ. That is what The Bible teaches, regardless of what those authors you said believe, and regardless of what the Pre-trib Rapture theory churches teach and believe on that.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry, but those authors you quote were grossly misled, and misled many others along with themselves. God's Word DOES... specifically teach the idea of a 'rapture' at Christ's future coming, and also the TIME of His future coming in relation to the tribulation period at the end of this world.

1. 'rapture' - that word is not in the Greek. It is a derivative from Latin of the Greek word harpazo. The Greek word harpazo is translated to "caught up" in the KJV Bible. Greek harpazo means to seize. The harpazo event was taught by Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 specifically in relation to the day of Christ's future coming to gather His saints.

2. Apostle Paul on teaching the "caught up" idea in 1 Thessalonians 4 got that teaching from Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus taught that 'immediately AFTER' the tribulation, the peoples on earth will see Him coming in the clouds, and He will send His angels to gather His saints from 2 places, one group being the 'asleep' saints Paul said He brings with Him when He comes, and the other group of saints being those still alive on earth when He comes.

3. the so-called 'rapture' idea is about Christ's coming and sending His angels to gather His saints that are still alive on earth. That is the group that will be "caught up" according to Paul.

4. because Lord Jesus showed that gathering of His saints event is to occur immediately AFTER... the tribulation of those days, that points specifically to a Post-tribulational coming by Jesus Christ. That is what The Bible teaches, regardless of what those authors you said believe, and regardless of what the Pre-trib Rapture theory churches teach and believe on that.

I'm showing that the greatest proponents of the pre-trib rapture cannot support it from scripture. How do you expect to?

How about scripture alone? Here's what Jesus and others say in scripture. Please read carefully.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV 1900)

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV 1900)


“Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:24)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)


“Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.” (Daniel 12:2)


““Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV

“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” 2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 (KJV 1900)

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)

“Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”” (1 Corinthians 15:54–55)


Notice, this happens on the last day, not 1007 years before the last day.

 

[SetFree]

I'm showing that the greatest proponents of the pre-trib rapture cannot support it from scripture. How do you expect to?

You don't seriously expect an answer to that, do you? By that question you automatically assume, just by 'their' credentials, that there's no way any of us little Christian believers can understand better... than them! All I can say to that is, you are terribly deceived by those authors, because they are following an AGENDA FROM MEN and not from God, called the Pre-trib Rapture Theory that John Nelson Darby first began preaching in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain. Prior to Darby, that doctrine was NEVER preached in a Christian Church for over 1,800 years!

So you think that just by someone attending one of the pop seminaries out there, that they automatically become an expert on Bible interpretation??? That is silly to think that, and a gross mark of being deceived. Only God through The Holy Spirit can give us the proper interpretation in His Word. How many Apostles do you think attended seminary, how is it they were able to understand?

I have spoken to several pastors that attended seminary, and they all told me the whole Bible was not even covered, and that each Church organization expected them to follow their pet organizational doctrines, and that individual Bible study was up to them to get!

Even the excellent 19th century British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger in the 1880s succumbed to the false 1830s Pre-trib Rapture theory, even though NO SUCH idea is written anywhere in God's Word.

And THAT is obviously what you are confused about, with you thinking that since those authors you heed said no pre-trib rapture is written in The Bible, and then with wrongly thinking that must mean there is NO "caught up" event written either, NOR any timing when that happens in relation to the "great tribulation" when Jesus DID give the specific timing!

And you are another that I shall not waste my time with.

 

[Lamb]

I have spoken to several pastors that attended seminary, and they all told me the whole Bible was not even covered, and that each Church organization expected them to follow their pet organizational doctrines, and that individual Bible study was up to them to get!

What seminary was that? The Lutheran seminaries definitely teach from the whole bible.

 

[SetFree]

How about scripture alone? Here's what Jesus and others say in scripture. Please read carefully.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV 1900)

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV 1900)

Ah... come on, don't play games with me trying to patronize me. I well know what Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4, and furthermore, I know WHO Paul got it from! You apparently do not, and instead just follow whatever traditions of men your preacher throws at you.

Now YOU... pay attention!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Like I said before, The New Testament does... show about a 'rapture' of the saints by Christ at His coming, and the TIMING when it will take place (in relation to the great tribulation Jesus also warned about).

The phrase:
"from one end of heaven to the other" = the 1 Thessalonians 4:14 event of the asleep saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.

In the Mark 13:24-27 version of this same gathering event as Matthew, it is the following phrase about the saints still alive being gathered from the earth...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven" = the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "caught up" event.

Listen to what I'm trying to show you, then you might... actually learn what God in His Word actually says as written, and you will begin to get out from under those hirelings that preach to fill their pocket books.

 

[SetFree]

What seminary was that? The Lutheran seminaries definitely teach from the whole bible.

Mostly Baptist seminaries.

 

[1689Dave]

You don't seriously expect an answer to that, do you? By that question you automatically assume, just by 'their' credentials, that there's no way any of us little Christian believers can understand better... than them! All I can say to that is, you are terribly deceived by those authors, because they are following an AGENDA FROM MEN and not from God, called the Pre-trib Rapture Theory that John Nelson Darby first began preaching in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain. Prior to Darby, that doctrine was NEVER preached in a Christian Church for over 1,800 years!

So you think that just by someone attending one of the pop seminaries out there, that they automatically become an expert on Bible interpretation??? That is silly to think that, and a gross mark of being deceived. Only God through The Holy Spirit can give us the proper interpretation in His Word. How many Apostles do you think attended seminary, how is it they were able to understand?

I have spoken to several pastors that attended seminary, and they all told me the whole Bible was not even covered, and that each Church organization expected them to follow their pet organizational doctrines, and that individual Bible study was up to them to get!

Even the excellent 19th century British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger in the 1880s succumbed to the false 1830s Pre-trib Rapture theory, even though NO SUCH idea is written anywhere in God's Word.

And THAT is obviously what you are confused about, with you thinking that since those authors you heed said no pre-trib rapture is written in The Bible, and then with wrongly thinking that must mean there is NO "caught up" event written either, NOR any timing when that happens in relation to the "great tribulation" when Jesus DID give the specific timing!

And you are another that I shall not waste my time with.

Try to prove a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Let's see what you come up with.

 

[1689Dave]

Ah... come on, don't play games with me trying to patronize me. I well know what Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4, and furthermore, I know WHO Paul got it from! You apparently do not, and instead just follow whatever traditions of men your preacher throws at you.

Now YOU... pay attention!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Like I said before, The New Testament does... show about a 'rapture' of the saints by Christ at His coming, and the TIMING when it will take place (in relation to the great tribulation Jesus also warned about).

The phrase:
"from one end of heaven to the other" = the 1 Thessalonians 4:14 event of the asleep saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.

In the Mark 13:24-27 version of this same gathering event as Matthew, it is the following phrase about the saints still alive being gathered from the earth...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven" = the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "caught up" event.

Listen to what I'm trying to show you, then you might... actually learn what God in His Word actually says as written, and you will begin to get out from under those hirelings that preach to fill their pocket books.

You are confusing the end of the world with the Jewish tribulation that took place in AD70.

 

[SetFree]

Try to prove a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Let's see what you come up with.

I already showed you, but your spiritual ears and eyes God has closed. You will have to pray to Him to ask Him to open your spiritual eyes and ears to His Word.

 

[1689Dave]

I already showed you, but your spiritual ears and eyes God has closed. You will have to pray to Him to ask Him to open your spiritual eyes and ears to His Word.

You are not correct in what you say. The Great Tribulation was for the Jews in AD70. The church has always been in tribulation since AD70.

 

[SetFree]

You ar confusing the end of the world with the Jewish tribulation that took place in AD70.

Not at all. The theory from men's doctrines that Christ's Olivet discourse was about the time back in 70 A.D. is a HUGE MYTH.

Christ's Olivet discourse is teaching the 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world, the SAME Signs Christ gave through Apostle John in Revelation 6, called the Seals.

I well know the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors preach against Christ's Olivet discourse, simply because it EXPOSES them as LIARS about the events of the end leading up to Christ's future return!

(For those not aware, Christ's Olivet discourse means the Signs of the End Jesus taught written in the Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 chapters. Preterists and Historicists both wrongly preach that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when it was not.)

 

[1689Dave]

Not at all. The theory from men's doctrines that Christ's Olivet discourse was about the time back in 70 A.D. is a HUGE MYTH.

Christ's Olivet discourse is teaching the 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world, the SAME Signs Christ gave through Apostle John in Revelation 6, called the Seals.

I well know the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors preach against Christ's Olivet discourse, simply because it EXPOSES them as LIARS about the events of the end leading up to Christ's future return!

(For those not aware, Christ's Olivet discourse means the Signs of the End Jesus taught written in the Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 chapters. Preterists and Historicists both wrongly preach that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when it was not.)

Are you denying the great tribulation, the worst ever according to Jesus, saying it did not happen?

 

[SetFree]

You are not correct in what you say. The Great Tribulation was for the Jews in AD70. The church has always been in tribulation since AD70.

Afraid not, you are regurgitating a doctrine of men that err in the Scriptures.

Even the very 1st Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, that not one stone would be standing atop another on the temple mount, is yet to be fulfilled. Today the Dome of The Rock, a building by Islam, is standing upon the temple mount in Jerusalem. And the old Western Wall of the old 2nd temple complex is STILL standing there, also called the Wailing Wall. It is made up of huge... stones atop one another.

So the men you follow are declaring Christ's Kingdom here on earth TOO EARLY. In John 18 Jesus said His Kingdom is NOT... of this world, meaning not of this present time. That means NONE will setup His Kingdom without His future return!

But God is going to send a false one in place of Christ for those deceived who love to heed what men with loads of credentials say, instead of staying in His Word as written. That is to happen PRIOR to Lord Jesus' future return.

 

[SetFree]

Are you denying the great tribulation, the worst ever according to Jesus, saying it did not happen?

I am denying what YOU are teaching, which is NOT Bible Scripture. So how's that?

So, does that mean you DENY the "great tribulation" in the last days that Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned the Church about, which includes the coming of a false-Christ that will place the "abomination of desolation" idol that Jesus warned about? Are you saying a false one came already and placed that "abomination of desolation" idol in a temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?

 

[1689Dave]

Afraid not, you are regurgitating a doctrine of men that err in the Scriptures.

Even the very 1st Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, that not one stone would be standing atop another on the temple mount, is yet to be fulfilled. Today the Dome of The Rock, a building by Islam, is standing upon the temple mount in Jerusalem. And the old Western Wall of the old 2nd temple complex is STILL standing there, also called the Wailing Wall. It is made up of huge... stones atop one another.

So the men you follow are declaring Christ's Kingdom here on earth TOO EARLY. In John 18 Jesus said His Kingdom is NOT... of this world, meaning not of this present time. That means NONE will setup His Kingdom without His future return!

But God is going to send a false one in place of Christ for those deceived who love to heed what men with loads of credentials say, instead of staying in His Word as written. That is to happen PRIOR to Lord Jesus' future return.

Have you ever read the history of the matter? Josephus (BTW He's a Jewish historian) says over a million Jews perished. Some turned into cannibals when the Romans shut off their supplies.

 

[SetFree]

Have you ever read the history of the matter? Josephus (BTW He's a Jewish historian) says over a million Jews perished. Some turned into cannibals when the Romans shut off their supplies.

So you think the number of dead and the atrocities committed during WWI and WWII were not greater? How many Jews were killed in the Holocaust by Hitler? Why isn't that claimed to be the time of "great tribulation"?

What you've been taught to do, is take that little word 'tribulation', and TRY... to apply it by itself while DISREGARDING all the other prophetic parameters in Christ's Olivet discourse that are part of it, and are identifiers of the timing.

 

[1689Dave]

So you think the number of dead and the atrocities committed during WWI and WWII were not greater? How many Jews were killed in the Holocaust by Hitler? Why isn't that claimed to be the time of "great tribulation"?

What you've been taught to do, is take that little word 'tribulation', and TRY... to apply it by itself while DISREGARDING all the other prophetic parameters in Christ's Olivet discourse that are part of it, and are identifiers of the timing.

I think cannibalism is the bottom rung, don't you?

 

[SetFree]

I think cannibalism is the bottom rung, don't you?

You've gotten way... out... in Leftist... field. You have a lot to catch up with regarding the Scripture evidences I posted about the TIMING of Christ's future return in relation to the "great tribulation" He linked with the END, and the "caught up" event of the alive saints, and the bringing of the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes.

 

[1689Dave]

You've gotten way... out... in Leftist... field. You have a lot to catch up with regarding the Scripture evidences I posted about the TIMING of Christ's future return in relation to the "great tribulation" He linked with the END, and the "caught up" event of the alive saints, and the bringing of the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes.

Scripture teaches ONE return of the Lord. You teach two returns.