Do you believe in the rapture?

[NewCreation435]

I am reading a book by David Jeremiah and in it he talks about the rapture and about a 7 year tribulation period.
I have heard this before and that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation period and then the second coming happens later.
Some have suggested that the rapture is invisible but I don't believe that.

Do you believe in the rapture? Is it something different in your opinion than the second coming?
Please support your thoughts with scripture.

 

[Lamb]

Here is what I believe and it's a quote from a lutheran faq: https://wels.net/faq/wels-belief-on-rapture/

The false teaching of the Rapture is the idea that, prior to the end of the world, believers will suddenly be whisked out of this world to heaven. The teaching is a gross misunderstanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. That section of Scripture explains that on the Last Day Jesus will return visibly to this world, raise the dead and gather to himself the Christians who are still alive on the earth at his return. Being “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” is what will happen on the Last Day not prior to the Last Day.

 

[NewCreation435]

Here is what I believe and it's a quote from a lutheran faq: https://wels.net/faq/wels-belief-on-rapture/

The false teaching of the Rapture is the idea that, prior to the end of the world, believers will suddenly be whisked out of this world to heaven. The teaching is a gross misunderstanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. That section of Scripture explains that on the Last Day Jesus will return visibly to this world, raise the dead and gather to himself the Christians who are still alive on the earth at his return. Being “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” is what will happen on the Last Day not prior to the Last Day.

I would agree with that. I was taught the rapture as a teenager and then my pastor talked about it two weeks ago, but I have never thought that an invisible return was correct or biblical.

 

[Josiah]

What Lamm said....

An excellent evaluation of the fundamental, foundational heresy in these books: https://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/archives/lessing2.htm




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[tango]

The strongest support, such as it is, for the concept of a rapture seems to be the verse in 1Th that has already been mentioned.

I think the fundamental problem with the concept of the rapture is that it requires that much of the Revelation be discarded. In the Revelation it is clear that the beast will "wage war against the saints" and "overcome them". How is this possible if the saints have been raptured? When the bowls of wrath are poured out the text talks of the things that happen to those who have taken the mark of the beast although if by that time only non-believers remain it would be reasonable to assume that everybody left on the earth had taken the mark and therefore such a distinction is pointless.

Tim LaHaye attempts to overcome this problem with the concept of an initial rapture followed by a chance to repent for those left behind. This is the basis of much of his "Left Behind" series although from his other publications it appears his theological beliefs include a rapture for the "first wave" of believers followed by some opportunities for those not raptured to repent and face the tribulation. I forget which of his non-fiction books includes his more serious musings on the subject although personally I found them unconvincing - they gave me the impression of trying to force a flawed theology to work despite evidence against it rather than a theology that clearly matched Scripture.

The idea of Christians being somehow removed from the earth prior to the events of the tribulation is certainly an appealing one, much as the so-called "prosperity gospel" is appealing. Sadly being appealing doesn't make it true and I fear the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture is as flawed as the prosperity gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). Saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). See “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves despite the failed prophecies surrounding them, millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims that have no scripture supporting them.

 

[Lees]

Here is what I believe and it's a quote from a lutheran faq: WELS belief on Rapture

The false teaching of the Rapture is the idea that, prior to the end of the world, believers will suddenly be whisked out of this world to heaven. The teaching is a gross misunderstanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. That section of Scripture explains that on the Last Day Jesus will return visibly to this world, raise the dead and gather to himself the Christians who are still alive on the earth at his return. Being “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” is what will happen on the Last Day not prior to the Last Day.

So, you believe in a Rapture.

You just believe you will be wisked away at a different time.

Lees

 

[Lees]

The strongest support, such as it is, for the concept of a rapture seems to be the verse in 1Th that has already been mentioned.

I think the fundamental problem with the concept of the rapture is that it requires that much of the Revelation be discarded. In the Revelation it is clear that the beast will "wage war against the saints" and "overcome them". How is this possible if the saints have been raptured? When the bowls of wrath are poured out the text talks of the things that happen to those who have taken the mark of the beast although if by that time only non-believers remain it would be reasonable to assume that everybody left on the earth had taken the mark and therefore such a distinction is pointless.

Tim LaHaye attempts to overcome this problem with the concept of an initial rapture followed by a chance to repent for those left behind. This is the basis of much of his "Left Behind" series although from his other publications it appears his theological beliefs include a rapture for the "first wave" of believers followed by some opportunities for those not raptured to repent and face the tribulation. I forget which of his non-fiction books includes his more serious musings on the subject although personally I found them unconvincing - they gave me the impression of trying to force a flawed theology to work despite evidence against it rather than a theology that clearly matched Scripture.

The idea of Christians being somehow removed from the earth prior to the events of the tribulation is certainly an appealing one, much as the so-called "prosperity gospel" is appealing. Sadly being appealing doesn't make it true and I fear the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture is as flawed as the prosperity gospel.

I do hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture. It certainly doesn't require anything in the book of (Revelation) to be discarded.

The Rapture is not the end of God's dealings with man on earth. Both the Tribulation and Millennium will contain saved and lost peoples. Thus there will be saints there....just not part of the Church.

Let's see. Enoch was translated and happened to miss the flood. Noah and his family were provided for and delivered from the flood. Lot and his family were provided for, save his wife who looked back, and were delivered. In 70 A.D. Christians in Jerusalem were miracuously given time, and remembered Jesus warning about fleeing to the mountains. And they did. I sense a pattern here...God likes to deliver His people.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

So, you believe in a Rapture.

You just believe you will be wisked away at a different time.

Lees

When people refer to the Rapture, they generally think of the Left Behind idea, but that's not biblical. When Jesus comes again, it's Judgment Day.

 

[Lees]

When people refer to the Rapture, they generally think of the Left Behind idea, but that's not biblical. When Jesus comes again, it's Judgment Day.

I have no problem with a judgement day at the Rapture.

But, you did said we will be wisked away. A Rapture.

So, you either believe in a Rapture or you don't. Which is it? Your last sentence post #(2).

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

I have no problem with a judgement day at the Rapture.

But, you did said we will be wisked away. A Rapture.

So, you either believe in a Rapture or you don't. Which is it? Your last sentence post #(2).

Lees

The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine uprooted by Christ in the gospels. And condemned as heresy by the ancient Creeds that summarized Christian teaching. There is NO pre-trib rapture anywhere mentioned in the scriptures.

See post #6 above for proof.

 

[Lamb]

I have no problem with a judgement day at the Rapture.

But, you did said we will be wisked away. A Rapture.

So, you either believe in a Rapture or you don't. Which is it? Your last sentence post #(2).

Lees

It's not like we'll be whisked away... we'll be "caught up". The English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin translation of the verb "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 (rapiemur). We'll be judged and then to believers Jesus will say, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. Nonbelievers don't get a "second chance" as the Left Behind series claims, they too are judged and sent to Hell according to their works since they refuse to believe.

 

[Lees]

It's not like we'll be whisked away... we'll be "caught up". The English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin translation of the verb "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 (rapiemur). We'll be judged and then to believers Jesus will say, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. Nonbelievers don't get a "second chance" as the Left Behind series claims, they too are judged and sent to Hell according to their works since they refuse to believe.

Well, you said whisked away when talking about my pre-Trib view of the Rapture. When talking about your view you said, as (1 Thess.) does, that we will meet in the clouds and in the air. And I believe those verses in (1 Thess) also.

So, you still haven't answered. You appear to believe in a Rapture. If we are caught up in the clouds and air, that is the Rapture.

Or, do you just not want to admit it?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Well, you said whisked away when talking about my pre-Trib view of the Rapture. When talking about your view you said, as (1 Thess.) does, that we will meet in the clouds and in the air. And I believe those verses in (1 Thess) also.

So, you still haven't answered. You appear to believe in a Rapture. If we are caught up in the clouds and air, that is the Rapture.

Or, do you just not want to admit it?

Lees

I did answer you. I answered you very clearly, in fact. I don't believe in the "Rapture" that the Left Behind series makes claims to. What I believe is what I wrote, so I advise you to just read it again since you claim I didn't answer you. I don't like playing that type of game of accusations. Read it again instead of this demand of something that you think didn't happen.

 

[Lees]

I did answer you. I answered you very clearly, in fact. I don't believe in the "Rapture" that the Left Behind series makes claims to. What I believe is what I wrote, so I advise you to just read it again since you claim I didn't answer you. I don't like playing that type of game of accusations. Read it again instead of this demand of something that you think didn't happen.

In your last sentence in post #(2) you said we are caught up in the clouds and the air to meet the Lord.

Yet you say you dont believe in the Rapture. But that is the Rapture.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

In your last sentence in post #(2) you said we are caught up in the clouds and the air to meet the Lord.

Yet you say you dont believe in the Rapture. But that is the Rapture.

Lees

I've made it very clear that I don't believe in the Rapture that is presented by the Left Behind series. I've told you my beliefs. This arguing back and forth is not edifying and I've presented exactly what I believe, yet you persist in arguing. Why is that?

 

[Lees]

I've made it very clear that I don't believe in the Rapture that is presented by the Left Behind series. I've told you my beliefs. This arguing back and forth is not edifying and I've presented exactly what I believe, yet you persist in arguing. Why is that?

But...you believe in the Rapture. Correct? Again, your words post #(2).

Forget the 'left behind series'. I don't care. The point is you believe there will be a Rapture.

Why are you afraid to admit that?

Edifying? It certainly isn't edifying to dodge a simple question.

In other words, based on what you said, you believe in the Rapture...just not a pre-Trib Rapture. Correct?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

But...you believe in the Rapture. Correct? Again, your words post #(2).

Forget the 'left behind series'. I don't care. The point is you believe there will be a Rapture.

Why are you afraid to admit that?

Edifying? It certainly isn't edifying to dodge a simple question.

In other words, based on what you said, you believe in the Rapture...just not a pre-Trib Rapture. Correct?

Lees

The term "Rapture" has been bastardized by certain Evangelicals so I would say that I believe rapiemur, the Latin word since that's the meaning and not the Left Behind's version that I believe.

It's kind of like if I were to ask you, instead of Are you happy....I'd ask Are you gay? The term used to have a different meaning, but the modern notion has changed. NOW do you get where I'm at with this term?????

 

[Lees]

The term "Rapture" has been bastardized by certain Evangelicals so I would say that I believe rapiemur, the Latin word since that's the meaning and not the Left Behind's version that I believe.

It's kind of like if I were to ask you, instead of Are you happy....I'd ask Are you gay? The term used to have a different meaning, but the modern notion has changed. NOW do you get where I'm at with this term?????

I believe the same verses in (1 Thess. 4:13-18) that you do.

I believe we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. As you do.

So, you don't like the word 'rapture'. That's fine. But that is the word I use to describe the same event both you and I believe.

What you want to call it, doesn't change it. You disagree on when it occurs. Not if it occurs.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the same verses in (1 Thess. 4:13-18) that you do.

I believe we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. As you do.

So, you don't like the word 'rapture'. That's fine. But that is the word I use to describe the same event both you and I believe.

What you want to call it, doesn't change it. You disagree on when it occurs. Not if it occurs.

Lees

Where you miss it is that, according to scripture, it happens on the last day after the resurrection, just before the universe explodes into the new heavens and earth.