Bertrand Russell on God

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If you have a few minutes to spare, watch this short clip from an interview with Bertrand Russell. It summarizes several of his most important thoughts on God, religion and beliefs.

One thing that I find fascinating in what he says is: "either a thing is true or it isn't; if it is true, you should believe it; if it isn't, you shouldn't; if you can't find out whether it's true or not, you should suspend judgement". This goes against the very core of the teachings of Christianity, which says that we should live our lives in constant belief of things we cannot find out whether are true or not.

I don't understand why Russel's perspective seems so much more reasonable than the Christian one.

What are some things from this interview clip you would like to share some thoughts on?

 

[Lamb]

If I were struggling in my faith, no way would I be turning to an Atheist to try to give me hints on what is true or isn't.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If I were struggling in my faith, no way would I be turning to an Atheist to try to give me hints on what is true or isn't.

Then how would I find out why faith is necessary to have in the first place?

 

[Lamb]

Then how would I find out why faith is necessary to have in the first place?

You're asking yourself the wrong question. Ask if you need a Savior and go from there. The answer, is Yes, of course, but investigate why.

 

[Albion]

Then how would I find out why faith is necessary to have in the first place?

Because you had been persuaded that the Bible is indeed what it purports to be.

This (The Bertrand Russell quote) goes against the very core of the teachings of Christianity, which says that we should live our lives in constant belief of things we cannot find out whether are true or not.

Not so. Christianity says that we should live our lives in the belief of truths we have had revealed to us. That's what the Bible amounts to.

Of course, if you don't believe the Bible, then the question you asked would have a different answer. You would have found why Faith is important...but then rejected the advice.

While you might also consider the claims made by the writings and teachings of other religions, logically enough you'd be less interested in the view of someone who categorically dismisses any and all beliefs in a reality beyond the natural, material world.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

You're asking yourself the wrong question.

Why is the question wrong if it aims to find an answer for something that I want to find out?

 

[Josiah]

he says is: "either a thing is true or it isn't; if it is true, you should believe it; if it isn't, you shouldn't; if you can't find out whether it's true or not, you should suspend judgement".

An interesting thing for an atheistic, secular, materialistic philosopher to say.... especially since he didn't suspend judgement.

I cannot find out whether Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492 (I wasn't there). I can't find out that Jupiter is made up primarily of gas (I'm not there). I cannot find out whether the US has a Constitution (I've never seen it). Heck, I can't find out if Russell actually ever existed or if he said this silly thing. So, according to him, I must suspend judgement.





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[Nomad]

I have read a couple of essays by Bertrand Russell. He is a rationalist. He did not believe in God. He rather patronized Platonism. I find his platonism similar to Rumi, a Sufi poet. For Russel God was nothing but a moral factor.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Not so. Christianity says that we should live our lives in the belief of truths we have had revealed to us. That's what the Bible amounts to.

But what if I apply the Biblical claims to real life and they fail to produce the promised result? Should I try to reframe and reinterpret the Biblical claims as figures of speech or as being applicable only to Jesus' contemporaries, like some Christians do, or should I question their veracity?

"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith." (Matthew 21:22)

This is a clear promise of Jesus. We can all see that it's not applicable in real life. We have unanswered prayers made in faith all the time.

There is no caveat to this promise. It doesn't say "if God wants it" or "if it aligns with God's will".

So what should I do about this conundrum?

Interpret the promise as being applicable only for Jesus' apostles? If that's the case, why would the rest of His advice be applicable to the whole world?

Interpret it as a figure of speech? Maybe He was using hyperbole?

Or face the fact that the Bible contains promises that I have applied to my life and failed, leaving me to question the trustworthiness of the Scriptures?

 

[tango]

An interesting thing for an atheistic, secular, materialistic philosopher to say.... especially since he didn't suspend judgement.

I cannot find out whether Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492 (I wasn't there). I can't find out that Jupiter is made up primarily of gas (I'm not there). I cannot find out whether the US has a Constitution (I've never seen it). Heck, I can't find out if Russell actually ever existed or if he said this silly thing. So, according to him, I must suspend judgement.

Maybe this isn't exactly what Russell teaches but the idea of suspending judgment isn't necessarily such a bad thing, even if it only takes the form of acknowledging that you don't know for sure that something is true but believe it or doubt it based on the credibility or otherwise of the source telling you about it.

I've never been as far west as the Mississippi River. I have no tangible evidence I can personally point at that proves there is anything west of the river. For all I know it could be the end of the known world. It might not even exist - I've certainly never seen it. Yet some people claim it's there and that there is land beyond it and some people even claim to live in that land. I don't know for sure whether they are telling the truth or not, and yet the existence of states west of the river is generally accepted even by people (like me) who have never personally seen a shred of evidence that they are real.

Hence we end up with a question of whether we actually know something or simply repeat it because it's something we've been taught. I know my wife exists because she is sitting in the chair next to me - I can look across and see her. I know many things through direct personal experience. I am inclined to believe more things because I have a degree of trust in people who have had experiences I am disinclined to doubt. As to the nature of Jupiter, I don't know. I'm told by people who claim to know a lot more than I do about its nature but have no way to verify whether what they are telling me is true. I don't know with absolute certainty that Jupiter even exists, although I've been told about it since I was a young boy.

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to at least acknowledge that some of the things I would describe as facts are actually statements of faith, at least from a personal perspective. Of course we can't absolutely discount the possibility we are living in a Matrix-style simulation - we can merely believe that what we see around us is real.

 

[tango]

If I were struggling in my faith, no way would I be turning to an Atheist to try to give me hints on what is true or isn't.

Respectfully, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone struggling with a belief in anything to examine whether that belief is true and to what extent it might be true.

How do we shake out some of what we would call false teaching within the church unless we encourage people to examine their beliefs and verify them? How do we heed the Scriptural call to "test all things" without, you know, actually testing them? If something is true it will withstand testing.

 

[Albion]

But what if I apply the Biblical claims to real life and they fail to produce the promised result? Should I try to reframe and reinterpret the Biblical claims as figures of speech or as being applicable only to Jesus' contemporaries, like some Christians do, or should I question their veracity?

"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith." (Matthew 21:22)

This is a clear promise of Jesus. We can all see that it's not applicable in real life. We have unanswered prayers made in faith all the time.

True enough, but I don't see that statement as being a guarantee and meant to be taken literally.

I see it as being more in the style of something like 2 Timothy 3:12 “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” Well, it's probably not the case that every last person who wanted to live a godly life was persecuted for it; and we all know that this is so, but that doesn't diminish the message. And we speak the same way ourselves quite often.

 

[Messy]

But what if I apply the Biblical claims to real life and they fail to produce the promised result? Should I try to reframe and reinterpret the Biblical claims as figures of speech or as being applicable only to Jesus' contemporaries, like some Christians do, or should I question their veracity?

"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith." (Matthew 21:22)

This is a clear promise of Jesus. We can all see that it's not applicable in real life. We have unanswered prayers made in faith all the time.

There is no caveat to this promise. It doesn't say "if God wants it" or "if it aligns with God's will".

So what should I do about this conundrum?

Interpret the promise as being applicable only for Jesus' apostles? If that's the case, why would the rest of His advice be applicable to the whole world?

Interpret it as a figure of speech? Maybe He was using hyperbole?

Or face the fact that the Bible contains promises that I have applied to my life and failed, leaving me to question the trustworthiness of the Scriptures?

Word of Faith teachers have answers to this. Even the apostles couldn't heal someone when Jesus was on the mountain with Peter and John and He said that those demons wouldn't go out except through prayer and fasting and He rebuked them for their unbelief. Faith has to grow. It's like a muscle. Believe that you have received it and it will happen. I had RSI. I couldn't do my job anymore for a year and they wanted to put me on benefits. I went for prayer in church to get healed, but when I went home and tried to use my mouse it hurt and I said: I'm not healed. So even if God healed me my mouth ruined the miracle. So for a year I listened to Bible texts about healing to build my faith and I kept confessing that I was healed by His stripes, although I still could not work and had to stay away from a computer and not much had changed. I went to a meeting and a guy from Australia preached. He said the truth is God's Word. You're healed. And those are just lying symptoms. After a year my faith was built by reading, saying Bible texts about healing out loud hours a day and putting a walkman w healing texts on my head at night. I went to a healing meeting and a guy who just got saved and couldn't use his legs, they just said: do what you couldnt do and he was jumping around on the podium and I was like: what? He's just saved and he gets it just like that. Why am I so complicated? So I hit the floor w my arm hard and I was healed. Just never give up. And sometimes you need more ppl to pray for the same thing or to both fast for it.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Word of Faith teachers have answers to this. Even the apostles couldn't heal someone when Jesus was on the mountain with Peter and John and He said that those demons wouldn't go out except through prayer and fasting and He rebuked them for their unbelief. Faith has to grow. It's like a muscle. Believe that you have received it and it will happen. I had RSI. I couldn't do my job anymore for a year and they wanted to put me on benefits. I went for prayer in church to get healed, but when I went home and tried to use my mouse it hurt and I said: I'm not healed. So even if God healed me my mouth ruined the miracle. So for a year I listened to Bible texts about healing to build my faith and I kept confessing that I was healed by His stripes, although I still could not work and had to stay away from a computer and not much had changed. I went to a meeting and a guy from Australia preached. He said the truth is God's Word. You're healed. And those are just lying symptoms. After a year my faith was built by reading, saying Bible texts about healing out loud hours a day and putting a walkman w healing texts on my head at night. I went to a healing meeting and a guy who just got saved and couldn't use his legs, they just said: do what you couldnt do and he was jumping around on the podium and I was like: what? He's just saved and he gets it just like that. Why am I so complicated? So I hit the floor w my arm hard and I was healed. Just never give up. And sometimes you need more ppl to pray for the same thing or to both fast for it.

I appreciate you taking the time to write about your experience, and I am glad that you are feeling better, but, for me, what you are describing sounds like choosing to live in delusion. Believing something that does not match the reality you're experiencing (namely, believing that you're healed when you're clearly experiencing pain) is a delusion. I've tried it before and it did not produce any results, and I don't feel comfortable living my life that way. It is causing me stress and making me feel like I'm constantly lying to myself.

 

[Messy]

I appreciate you taking the time to write about your experience, and I am glad that you are feeling better, but, for me, what you are describing sounds like choosing to live in delusion. Believing something that does not match the reality you're experiencing (namely, believing that you're healed when you're clearly experiencing pain) is a delusion. I've tried it before and it did not produce any results, and I don't feel comfortable living my life that way. It is causing me stress and making me feel like I'm constantly lying to myself.

They may go a bit too far. Some are more realistic. I just don't want to speak unbelief. Others just say: I'm sick and keep getting prayer until they're healed. It also gives problems with ppl who don't believe, because they think you're nuts. I have to do effort to just not talk, cause I don't want to speak unbelief. The father from John the baptist couldn't talk. He would have ruined the miracle with his mouth.