What or Who is the Church?

[brightfame52]

So, just how many Seeds are there with you? Seed of God? Seed of Abraham? Seed of Eve? Yet you claimed there is only One Seed. Then you claimed there are two seeds. Now you claim ther are three seeds. Please make up your mind...if possible.

Israel and the Church are of the Seed of God. Eve is of the Seed of God. Just because Eve is of the Seed of God doesn't make Eve part of Israel or the Church. Just because Eve bore another seed, Seth, doesn't make her part of the Church or Israel.

Just because Christ would be that seed, doesn't make Adam and Eve, or those from Adam to Moses, part of Israel or the Church.

No, it's not over my head. But it is all over my boots as something I stepped in. But keep talking. I have stepped through this..stuff...before.

And, respond to post #(161) and (173).



Oh yes, those Scriptures say just that. (Eph 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:5-6) (1 Cor. 12;13)

The Chruch of Jesus Christ did not begin in (Genesis), as these Scriptures prove. Israel began in the days of Moses as (Deut. 27:9) proves.

Your position is false. Scripture is against you.

You are typical of those who hold the position you do. You run and hide. You try and not answer the questions that prove from Scripture how wrong you are.

Lees

I have already explained my point, and you asking me what I believe ? This subject is over your head, you been influenced by false teachers, but Im the one you been looking for. This discussion is easy for me to defend, but its a topic over your head. I just hope someone else benefitted from it.

 

[Lees]

lees


Thats madness, Its all one seed, one body, Christs Spiritual Seed that He redeemed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Everyone Christ soul was made an offering for, is Israel, is the Church, that's it. All who belongs to the seed will be given faith in Christ, from genesis to revelation



Nobody denies differences. in races, sex, social status, but none of those physical differences changes the fact that all the Justified are one in Christ Gal 3:27-29

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You making physical differences in Spiritual Israel, contrary to the Gospel, Paul rebuked Peter for that foolishness'. In essence you are saying God saved or saves some people based on their flesh, race, in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Israel that God promised to Save in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with race Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Do you believe the Lord here in this scripture is the Lord Jesus Christ here Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You're the one bringing up several seeds. Not me.

You ignore my point. If a man and woman have children, they are of one seed. Different children, different bodies, yet of one seed. Deep stuff I know.

Lees

 

[Lees]

lees



Yes I have, you dont understand the response, its obvious.

Yes, I understand the response. Because there is no response.

And I understand why there is no response. It's because Scripture is against you and you don't want to admit it. So you just ignore it and hope I won't push it.

But I will, till hell freezes over. Because you have been caught in perpetuating a lie. One you can't prove, so you run.

Lees

 

[Lees]

I have already explained my point, and you asking me what I believe ? This subject is over your head, you been influenced by false teachers, but Im the one you been looking for. This discussion is easy for me to defend, but its a topic over your head. I just hope someone else benefitted from it.

No you haven't. You can''t answer the questions. You can say anything you want. That is not explaining your point. You can't answer the question because Scripture does not support your position.

Yet you would rather perpetuate this lie then acknowledge that Scripture is against you.

The topic is not over my head. Your position is all over my boots, and smells to high heaven.

I hope the same.

Respond to my post #(161).

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

You're the one bringing up several seeds. Not me.

You ignore my point. If a man and woman have children, they are of one seed. Different children, different bodies, yet of one seed. Deep stuff I know.

Lees

Only One Seed, Christ and His Body the Church/Israel from the beginning to the end !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I understand the response. Because there is no response.

And I understand why there is no response. It's because Scripture is against you and you don't want to admit it. So you just ignore it and hope I won't push it.

But I will, till hell freezes over. Because you have been caught in perpetuating a lie. One you can't prove, so you run.

Lees

Thats been discussed, but you dont understand !

 

[brightfame52]

No you haven't. You can''t answer the questions. You can say anything you want. That is not explaining your point. You can't answer the question because Scripture does not support your position.

Yet you would rather perpetuate this lie then acknowledge that Scripture is against you.

The topic is not over my head. Your position is all over my boots, and smells to high heaven.

I hope the same.

Respond to my post #(161).

Lees

Like I said, hopefully God will use the things I have brought to this discussion and bless their understanding from the deception you engulfed in.

 

[SetFree]

....
The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38) But that is not the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.

That being the time of Pentecost is the popular notion in men's doctrines, but it's not truly that accurate.

Because many brethren do not study... all their Bible, they are not aware of just when... The Gospel was first taught in history, and who to.

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul revealed that The Gospel was preached to Abraham (Galatians 3:5-9). God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith first, and that 430 years before the giving of the law to the children of Israel (which hadn't even been born yet when The Gospel was shown to Abraham). Paul even says that those of Faith have become "the children of Abraham", and INHERIT with faithful Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29).

Abraham believed, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. So how... can men's doctrines just try and throw away all that testimony by Apostle Paul about the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham? Abraham simply didn't get to live to the time of Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection. That didn't mean Abraham wasn't part of Christ's Church back when he believed on Christ, for our Faith is after the model of Abraham's Faith, according to Apostle Paul.

Oh, but how men love to argue over their pet doctrines.

 

[Albion]

That being the time of Pentecost is the popular notion in men's doctrines, but it's not truly that accurate.

Because many brethren do not study... all their Bible, they are not aware of just when... The Gospel was first taught in history, and who to.

Pentecost (and its result on the crowd listening to Peter's sermon) was the first big breakthrough for the Church of Christ. Thousands were baptized. Previously, Jesus had followers, but it's estimated that they numbered only a few hundred in the whole of Israel, i.e. the areas in which Jesus had lived and preached.

To that extent, it's understandable how people would focus on Pentecost, but it doesn't answer the question debated in this thread about the start of the Church.

 

[SetFree]

Pentecost (and its result on the crowd listening to Peter's sermon) was the first big breakthrough for the Church of Christ. Thousands were baptized. Previously, Jesus had followers, but it's estimated that they numbered only a few hundred in the whole of Israel, i.e. the areas in which Jesus had lived and preached.

To that extent, it's understandable how people would focus on Pentecost, but it doesn't answer the question debated in this thread about the start of the Church.

I agree, it doesn't answer the question about the actual start of the Church. I see the start of the Church with God giving the Promise by Faith to Abraham. Yet even before that though, we have Enoch, the seventh from the man Adam, whom also God took up, quoted as saying this...

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

 

[Albion]

Could this be all a matter of the wording used?

In defense of the idea that the Church far predates the Incarnation, it's said that the Old Testament figures like Moses and Abraham certainly are God's people and are in Heaven. And it's also been noted that Christ IS God incarnate, so God's people of any age can be said to be of Christ's Church.

But it also is argued that if "the Church" is understood to be that which Jesus himself said, towards the end of his Earthly life, that he had founded, then the Church--that particular institution--cannot be an extension of the Hebrew religion or the church of Adam or Moses, etc.

 

[Lees]

That being the time of Pentecost is the popular notion in men's doctrines, but it's not truly that accurate.

Because many brethren do not study... all their Bible, they are not aware of just when... The Gospel was first taught in history, and who to.

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul revealed that The Gospel was preached to Abraham (Galatians 3:5-9). God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith first, and that 430 years before the giving of the law to the children of Israel (which hadn't even been born yet when The Gospel was shown to Abraham). Paul even says that those of Faith have become "the children of Abraham", and INHERIT with faithful Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29).

Abraham believed, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. So how... can men's doctrines just try and throw away all that testimony by Apostle Paul about the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham? Abraham simply didn't get to live to the time of Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection. That didn't mean Abraham wasn't part of Christ's Church back when he believed on Christ, for our Faith is after the model of Abraham's Faith, according to Apostle Paul.

Oh, but how men love to argue over their pet doctrines.

Faith has always been the only way that the believer is counted righteous, irregardless of what time period we are talking about. That faith is exercised when whatever Gospel is given from God to believe.

The Gospel to Abraham was not the Gospel to the Church.

Oh you who supposedly 'study' the Bible....should know that. I guess you just argue your pet doctrine. That's fine. I shoot dogs when it is necessary.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Faith has always been the only way that the believer is counted righteous, irregardless of what time period we are talking about. That faith is exercised when whatever Gospel is given from God to believe.

The Gospel to Abraham was not the Gospel to the Church.

Oh you who supposedly 'study' the Bible....should know that. I guess you just argue your pet doctrine. That's fine. I shoot dogs when it is necessary.

Lees

Please stop being condescending toward others in your posts. Your point would get across better if you refrained from insulting others.

 

[Lees]

Please stop being condescending toward others in your posts. Your point would get across better if you refrained from insulting others.

What is the deal?

The poster I replied to has said what I have stated is 'mens doctrines'. Post #(188)

The poster I replied to says these 'mens doctrines' of mine are just pet doctrines of mine. Post #(188)

And you are silent until I respond. And when I respond, I am called 'condescending'.

Please.

Lees

 

[SetFree]

Could this be all a matter of the wording used?

In defense of the idea that the Church far predates the Incarnation, it's said that the Old Testament figures like Moses and Abraham certainly are God's people and are in Heaven. And it's also been noted that Christ IS God incarnate, so God's people of any age can be said to be of Christ's Church.

But it also is argued that if "the Church" is understood to be that which Jesus himself said, towards the end of his Earthly life, that he had founded, then the Church--that particular institution--cannot be an extension of the Hebrew religion or the church of Adam or Moses, etc.

Greek for "church" is the word 'ekklesia', and it simply means a congregation of people.

Acts 7:38 by the prophet Stephen speaking of the congregation in the wilderness uses the word "church".

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 remarks about Christ as that Rock that followed them in the wilderness, and they were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

So really the idea of God's Church is much older than what men's traditions today call the Church. And even if you think about what Paul said about Christ's elect being chosen before the foundation of the world, that means even prior to the start of this present world before Adam and Eve.

The difference is... until Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh to die on the cross, and The Father raised Him from the dead, and He gave the commandment to preach The Gospel to all nations and baptize, what many of the Old Testament patriarchs already knew only 'then'... came into effect at Christ's 1st coming. Technically, The Gospel Message is contained in just about every Book of The Bible, starting in Genesis 3 using metaphor. And from Abraham forward within Christ's bloodline family, The Gospel was well known. Just because many didn't believe it and were instead locked into the law, like Paul said, did not mean it had no effect (Galatians 3:17).

 

[Albion]

Greek for "church" is the word 'ekklesia', and it simply means a congregation of people.

That's about the origin of the word, but it isn't understood as referring to a gathering of bar patrons or the members of the local Kiwanis club, right?

 

[SetFree]

That's about the origin of the word, but it isn't understood as referring to a gathering of bar patrons or the members of the local Kiwanis club, right?

Why would any believer on Christ Jesus insinuate the Biblical usage of that Greek word 'ekklesia' for those in Christ is about any other gathering than His saints?

And could the word 'ekklesia' also apply to just any type of gathering of peoples? Yeah, which God's Word uses it that way also here...

Acts 19:32
32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly (ekklesia) was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
KJV

 

[brightfame52]

I'm going to clarify something. National ethnic Israel was God's people while under the old covenant and it was by national covenant. However within that national covenant Israel was remnant Israel the spiritual body of Christ, God's people He foreknew. That Israel will be conformed to the image of Christ. Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

So yes in a real sense national ethnic Israel was God's people for a time by national covenant! 2

 

[Albion]

Why would any believer on Christ Jesus insinuate the Biblical usage of that Greek word 'ekklesia' for those in Christ is about any other gathering than His saints?

I doubt that very many would use it that way.

But I was pointing out that when you wrote this--

Greek for "church" is the word 'ekklesia', and it simply means a congregation of people.

...you were talking about the origin of the word, not the way it came to be used and understood by almost everyone (to mean a church gathering).

And could the word 'ekklesia' also apply to just any type of gathering of peoples? Yeah, which God's Word uses it that way also here...

Acts 19:32
32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly (ekklesia) was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
KJV

The word is used there in a loose or slang sense, not strictly correctly. See Acts 19:39 where that is explained.

 

[Prepared]

This came up in another thread and merits it's own discussion as there are differing opinions.

There are three classes of people to be observed in the Bible. Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)

Until God created the nation of Israel through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes, there was no such distinction between Jew and Gentile. In other words, from Adam to Abraham no such distinction existed. But once He did create the nation of Israel there has been and will forever be a distinction.

The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38) But that is not the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.

There were certainly believers before that. But, they were not part of the Church of Christ. They were certainly saved by Christ's sacrifice, as all believers are. But that doesn't make them part of the Body of Christ. The only way you can be part of the Body of Christ is through faith in Christ and the Spirit of Christ imparted to you. Born-again. (Rom. 8:9) And that could not happen until Pentecost.

So, recognizing these distinctions, Jew, Gentile and the Church, goes a long way in understanding the Scriptures. Ignoring these distinctions goes a long way in confusion.

In my opinion.

Lees

I'm curious didn't the Jews consider the gentiles all other people?

If that is the case then the church would be made up of the gentiles wouldn't it - with the exception of the Jewish people that may believe in the Divinity of Christ?