Im not answering all your questions. I have purposed to make my points the way I understand them. There are two Israels in Rom 9:6 one is ethnic national israel, and one is elect Israel, according to the election of grace and not race. Thats the church, the bride of Christ.Yes I know. You already said that. But I already showed you that physical Israel is necessary to be the Israel of God. I asked you questions. Was Jesus a Jew? Did Jesus need to be a Jew? Was Jesus of the tribe of Judah? Did He need to be of the tribe of Judah? Was Jesus of the family of David? Did Jesus need to be of the family of David? And of course you ignore.
Paul said nothing of the sort in (Rom. 9:6). Paul was simply identifying the true Israelite. He had to be 'of Israel'. He had to be a believer.
Please respond to (Eph. 3:3-6) and my post #(111).
Lees
I think its the Ekklesia. The church is comprised of the faithful. Not a building but a people who are each temples carrying holy spirit within.This came up in another thread and merits it's own discussion as there are differing opinions.
There are three classes of people to be observed in the Bible. Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)
Until God created the nation of Israel through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes, there was no such distinction between Jew and Gentile. In other words, from Adam to Abraham no such distinction existed. But once He did create the nation of Israel there has been and will forever be a distinction.
The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38) But that is not the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.
There were certainly believers before that. But, they were not part of the Church of Christ. They were certainly saved by Christ's sacrifice, as all believers are. But that doesn't make them part of the Body of Christ. The only way you can be part of the Body of Christ is through faith in Christ and the Spirit of Christ imparted to you. Born-again. (Rom. 8:9) And that could not happen until Pentecost.
So, recognizing these distinctions, Jew, Gentile and the Church, goes a long way in understanding the Scriptures. Ignoring these distinctions goes a long way in confusion.
In my opinion.
Lees
Lol, this is a public forum, nothing says I need to do what you tell me to do. Im providing explanations on my terms not yours friend. And since my explanations prove nothing, please quit asking me to explain passages of scripture.
Im not answering all your questions. I have purposed to make my points the way I understand them. There are two Israels in Rom 9:6 one is ethnic national israel, and one is elect Israel, according to the election of grace and not race. Thats the church, the bride of Christ.
I think its the Ekklesia. The church is comprised of the faithful. Not a building but a people who are each temples carrying holy spirit within.
When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elect sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !
Those biological Jews that were rejecting Christ and persecuting the Church. We saw it played out in Acts 2 when all present were Jews … some heard God glorified in a miracle and some heard drunken nonsense. Some had their hearts pierced at Peter’s words and some mocked the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.When God said in (Rom. 11:25) "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....." Who is He talking about?
Those verses don't say anything abut spiritual Israel being the Body of Christ, the Church.
That is what you are saying.
. It's only because you believe the Church and Israel are the same that you interpret this the way you do.
When God said in (Rom. 11:25) "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....." Who is He talking about?
Go back to (Rom. 9:3-4) as that is where Paul began this subject of Israel's unbelief. "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ, for my kinsman according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."
Those biological Jews that were rejecting Christ and persecuting the Church. We saw it played out in Acts 2 when all present were Jews … some heard God glorified in a miracle and some heard drunken nonsense. Some had their hearts pierced at Peter’s words and some mocked the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.
Some of Israel was called and some was veiled … just as when Jesus spoke and performed miracles.
lees
Is that all you have ?
Then those verses don't say anything about spiritual Israel not being the Body of Christ, the Church.
And unfortunately for you, you're not seeing
Its only because you dont believe the Church and Israel are the same that you dont understand scripture the way I do. Which means right now you are deceived and Im not.
He s talking about the physical nation, the whole nation isnt blinded, since there is a remnant in it according to the election of grace which will be being saved right along with the gentiles as he himself was proof. The physical nation being cut off from its covenant privilege doesnt negate that some ethnic jews along with gentiles shall be saved. And this continues until the end of the age, and thats the manner in which all Israel , not national israel, but Spiritual Elect Israel shall be saved.
I have read that many many times, probably more times than you have. Paul prayed for the jewish remnant to be converted to Christ, its still a prayer for the Church of Christ of which he himself was part of ! Paul wasnt ignorant, he knew for a fact that the entire nation was never going to be saved but a remnant Rom 9:27
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
As I stated you deceived.How ridiculous. Nothing there speaks of Israel being the Church. That means Israel is Israel. Israel is who is being addressed. Yes, that's what I got, and is more than enough to show the silliness of your position.
Yes, God is talking about physical Israel.
And no, He is talking about the nation Israel not spiritual Israel.
Which means when He uses the word 'until', He still has the physical nation of Israel in mind. Not the Church. The Church is not there...only in your mind.
Lees
As I stated you deceived.
I did.If you're going to participate, answer the question.
Lees
I did.
You asked a specific question about “who is He talking about” and I answered it.
Sorry if you did not like my answer, but that is your problem.
The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, are those whom God foreknew, His People. Rom 11:1-2a
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people[Israel] which he foreknew.
The casting away of the nation of israel was not God casting away His People Israel the Church, the Body of Christ, the remnant according to the election of grace. Rembert Paul had just wrote in Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[foreknew], which are of Israel[national:
Those whom He foreknew in Christ to be conformed to His Image, is the Israel the Body of Christ Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This verse Identifies Israel, no not the ethnic nation, but the people of God Israel, the Children of God Israel
The Church are God's people. True Israel are God's people
But the Church and Israel are not the same body of believers.
God forknew all His people,
I already proved that to you in (Rom. 9:3-4) and (Rom. 11:25). Paul is talking to a physical and national Israel. And it is they who are blinded 'until' the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom. 8:29) says absolutely nothing about the Church being Israel.
lees
Correct, but thats only the Israel God foreknew in Christ, they are one and the same.
Yes they are Eph 2:11-14
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one[commonwealth of Israel], and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Thats the point, and all of them are the foreknown in Christ, the head of His Body the Church. Are you implying that God foreknew His People outside of Christ ? That He loved people outside of Christ ?
I have corrected your error on those verses
It says absolutely nothing about the Church not being Israel, but it Identifies the Church as being Gods people that He foreknew, the same group that He hasnt cast away of national israel Rom 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying
Thats because the foreknown are those who are in Christ and are guaranteed conformity to Christ, so they are secure in Christ Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
No, the verses you try and use, (Eph. 2:11-14) prove you wrong.