What or Who is the Church?

[Lees]

This came up in another thread and merits it's own discussion as there are differing opinions.

There are three classes of people to be observed in the Bible. Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)

Until God created the nation of Israel through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes, there was no such distinction between Jew and Gentile. In other words, from Adam to Abraham no such distinction existed. But once He did create the nation of Israel there has been and will forever be a distinction.

The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38) But that is not the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.

There were certainly believers before that. But, they were not part of the Church of Christ. They were certainly saved by Christ's sacrifice, as all believers are. But that doesn't make them part of the Body of Christ. The only way you can be part of the Body of Christ is through faith in Christ and the Spirit of Christ imparted to you. Born-again. (Rom. 8:9) And that could not happen until Pentecost.

So, recognizing these distinctions, Jew, Gentile and the Church, goes a long way in understanding the Scriptures. Ignoring these distinctions goes a long way in confusion.

In my opinion.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

The Church is the Greek word ekklesia meaning the called out ones...and it encompasses the entire body of believers throughout the world.

 

[Albion]

The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38)

...or to a particular congregation or denomination, especially when used without a capitalization as with your usage here.

The only way you can be part of the Body of Christ is through faith in Christ and the Spirit of Christ imparted to you. Born-again. (Rom. 8:9) And that could not happen until Pentecost.

But here you deliberately use a different term, not "the Church," which is what you chose as the subject of your thread here and which you discussed in the Original Post!

In addition, the theology is defective when you exclude Moses, Abraham, and other Old Testament figures from the promise of salvation as you appear to be doing when switching to the term "Body of Christ."

 

[Josiah]

CHURCH.

"The one, holy, catholic community of saints" as most Christians proclaim each Sunday. This is PEOPLE, the PEOPLE of God. ALL those to whom God has given the divine gifts of faith, spiritual life, justification (narrow) and the Holy Spirit. It is the entire corpus of such (both on earth and now in heaven). It is "invisible" in the sense that it is not a human/geopolical/legal/economic entity but is "visible" in the sense that faith among the faithful is observable. It is ONE (because we are one body, one family, brothers and sisters in Christ), united in our faith in CHRIST as THE (one, only, exclusive) Savior. It is HOLY because all in it are forgiven via that faith in that Savior. It is CATHOLIC because it embraces ALL believers everywhere and in every time, it is a communion because we are united into one spiritual entity.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 4:4
1 Peter 2:9
Romans 12:4
Ephesians 1:1
Luke 17:21



CONGREGATION/PARISH

A congregation is a gathering of Christian people in a given place and time. They gather together by their Lord's direction to worship, study, serve/minister, grow, support, love and hold each other accountable. They MAY put institutional aspects into place (name, constitution/by laws, articles of corporation, budgets, officers, property, etc.) so that that association has institutional aspects or simply may be Christians who gather in some living room. While the word "church" is often used for this too, it is NOT to be confused with THE Church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of saints: these associations are at most a tiny and current subset of THE Church. There are tens of millions of congregations in the world, very few last more than a century so they tend to have a beginning and an end. It is NOT divinely mandated that all Christians associate into some congregation/parish, but many do and many believe this is a good thing but there are hundreds of millions of "non-congregational" Christians.

Galatians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Revelation 1:4
1 Corinthians 1:2



DENOMINATION


At times, a group of congregations MAY choose to associate together - forming an institution of them, an association of congregations.

This USUALLY is a formal institution - but it can at times simply refer to a common creed among congregations (as in "the Lutheran denomination" - there actually are over 300 Lutheran denomination institutions, but theoretically, most share a common creed, the Lutheran Confessions). These congregations associate together into denominations for similar reasons that Christians associate into congregations: for the purposes of mutual edification, ministry, support and accountability. Some of these are extremely "loose" (the "United Church of Christ" in the USA would be an example), the most radical forms are very strong they even may actually legally own and operate the member congregations (the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church USA are examples of very radical, extreme denominations). Examples would be "The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod" "The Greek Orthodox Church" "The United Reformed Church in America". There are thousands of denominations in the world currently, the largest (by far) being the Catholic Church although it is highly diversified into dioceses.

Congregations can be denominational (as most are) or non-denominational. Denominational ones are associated with other congregations - with a common formal statement of faith and often with some governance above and outside itself, whereas non-denominational ones are independent and autonomous. There is no divine mandate that a congregation be denominational (and millions aren't) but most are and most believe this is a benefit.

There are no Scriptures that mention denominations. Many hold that none clearly existed until the Roman Empire formed "The Roman Church" in the early 4th Century, created by itself for itself in the image of itself.


"Faith Community" is a term sometimes used for a group of congregations (or even individual Christians) who share a common statement of faith (although not an institution) - thus "the Lutheran Faith Community" for any and all denominations, parishes or individuals who embrace the Lutheran Confessions, or "The Anglican Communion" for examples. Occasionally, "denomination" is used in this sense, too.


- Josiah



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[Lees]

The Church is the Greek word ekklesia meaning the called out ones...and it encompasses the entire body of believers throughout the world.

When used only referring to the Church of Jesus Christ.

It does encompass the entire body of believers today, as the entire body of believers today are part of the Church. This is why they must believe in Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Lees

 

[Lees]

But here you deliberately use a different term, not "the Church," which is what you chose as the subject of your thread here and which you discussed in the Original Post!

In addition, the theology is defective when you exclude Moses, Abraham, and other Old Testament figures from the promise of salvation as you appear to be doing when switching to the term "Body of Christ."

No. The Church is the subject of this thread. The Church is synonomous with The Body and Bride of Christ.

No. You're reading comprehension is defective. I was clear in the 5th paragraph. Please reread. It contains that which you ignored and did not include in quoting me.

Lees

 

[Albion]

It does encompass the entire body of believers today, as the entire body of believers today are part of the Church. This is why they must believe in Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Lees

No. The Church is the subject of this thread. The Church is synonomous with The Body and Bride of Christ.

Meaning, I suppose, that you want to give up trying to pass off "Body of Christ" as the topic here instead of "The Church."

Nevertheless, "The Church" (aside from particular denominations who use it, capitalized, to refer to themselves in the belief that theirs is the only "real" Christian church) includes all true believers of all times, not just those alive in the flesh at the end of Earthly time or at the return of Christ.

 

[Lees]

As you choose to use it perhaps, but the actual meaning of the term is as we have explained.

You have explained nothing.

I am giving the actual meaning of the term 'the Church of Jesus Christ'. It is the Body and Bride of Christ. It had a beginning...Pentecost. Without the Spirit of Christ you are not part of the Body of Christ.

I have given Scripture. Funny...I see none from you or others.

Lees

 

[Albion]

You have explained nothing.

You mean, I suppose, that you just "didn't get it" or else you prefer to go on using the term incorrectly.

Either way, the meaning of the term remains as it has been explained to you.

You have a nice day now.

 

[Lees]

Meaning, I suppose, that you want to give up trying to pass off "Body of Christ" as the topic here instead of "The Church."

Nevertheless, "The Church" (aside from particular denominations who use it, capitalized, to refer to themselves in the belief that theirs is the only "real" Christian church) includes all true believers of all times, not just those alive in the flesh at the end of Earthly time or at the return of Christ.

The Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. No one is passing up anything.

The Church does not include all believers of all times. It began at Pentecost.

Lees

 

[Lees]

You mean, I suppose, that you just "didn't get it" or else you prefer to go on using the term incorrectly.

Either way, the meaning of the term remains as it has been explained to you.

You have a nice day now.

No, I mean you haven't explained anything.

Which is why you want to 'have a nice day'.

When you have something to present, get back with me.

Lees

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Until God created the nation of Israel through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes, there was no such distinction between Jew and Gentile. In other words, from Adam to Abraham no such distinction existed. But once He did create the nation of Israel there has been and will forever be a distinction.

I just wonder if Genesis 6:2 doesn't make a distinction between the church and unbelievers.
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.”

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. No one is passing up anything.

The Church does not include all believers of all times. It began at Pentecost.

Lees

So you are saying that Moses is not part of the Bride of Christ?

 

[Lees]

I just wonder if Genesis 6:2 doesn't make a distinction between the church and unbelievers.
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.”

The Church was non-existent during the time described in (Gen 6) as the Church began at Pentecost.

In (Gen. 6) distinction is made between 'sons of God' and 'daughters of men'. There are usually two views as to who those describe.

So you are saying that Moses is not part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes. Neither Moses or Israel is part of the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ.

Lees

 

[Joshua1Eight]

The Catholic Church is the only true church

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church is the only true church

OR...it's one of the dozens of other churches that say the same thing about themselves.

 

[Josiah]

You have explained nothing.

I am giving the actual meaning of the term 'the Church of Jesus Christ'. It is the Body and Bride of Christ. It had a beginning...Pentecost. Without the Spirit of Christ you are not part of the Body of Christ.

I have given Scripture. Funny...I see none from you or others.

Lees

1. The word "CHURCH" has several different meanings in contemporary English, but it is used in TWO ways in the Bible itself. See post #4. It can mean the corpus of all believers AND it can mean a parish/congregation - a gathering of believers in a given place and time. BOTH of these uses are found in the Bible itself. Scriptures for this are provided in post #4.


2. While some Christians speak of the CHURCH beginning at Pentecost, the Bible itself doesn't. You've claimed this, but you don't have a Scripture that says that (which is why you haven't provided such; contrary to your claim). There WERE believers before Pentecost - Mary, Elizabeth (both before Jesus was born), the Apostles, many others are noted as believers BEFORE Pentecost. And in a more generic sense, Hebrews 11 notes a number of people as believers, all before Pentecost. Were there PARISHES before Pentecost? That's not an easy question to answer, but what we can say is there's nothing that indicates one was founded on Pentecost.

See post #4



.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Yes. Neither Moses or Israel is part of the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ.

Lees

So Moses is damned to Hell fire?

 

[Lees]

So Moses is damned to Hell fire?

No.

Please go back and carfully read post #(1).

Lees

 

[Lees]

1. The word "CHURCH" has several different meanings in contemporary English, but it is used in TWO ways in the Bible itself. See post #4. It can mean the corpus of all believers AND it can mean a parish/congregation - a gathering of believers in a given place and time. BOTH of these uses are found in the Bible itself. Scriptures for this are provided in post #4.


2. While some Christians speak of the CHURCH beginning at Pentecost, the Bible itself doesn't. You've claimed this, but you don't have a Scripture that says that (which is why you haven't provided such; contrary to your claim). There WERE believers before Pentecost - Mary, Elizabeth (both before Jesus was born), the Apostles, many others are noted as believers BEFORE Pentecost. And in a more generic sense, Hebrews 11 notes a number of people as believers, all before Pentecost. Were there PARISHES before Pentecost? That's not an easy question to answer, but what we can say is there's nothing that indicates one was founded on Pentecost.

See post #4



.

The Bible does speak of the Church of Jesus Christ starting at Pentecost. And I gave Scripture to prove it. (Rom. 8:9) The Spirit of Christ could not be imparted until the Resurrection of Christ.

You want more. OK. (Matt. 16:18) The Church of Jesus Christ is yet future at the time Jesus said this to Peter. I will build. Not I am building.

The making of the new body of believers, both Jew and Gentile, is what makes up the Church. That could not occur until the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Once that occurred, the Spirit of Christ could begin that work in building the Church. (Eph. 1:19-23) (Eph. 2:14-18)

The Church of Jesus Christ, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ, began on the day the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. (Acts 2)

Lees