Unborn child counted as a passenger?

tango

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It seems like a creative way to test whether the unborn is a human or not. Chances are we'll still see the law defining Schrodingers Fetus, that is either human or not-human depending on the thoughts of the mother.

Clearly it's not the intention of the HOV lane but of course what matters is what the rule says rather than what anyone thinks is the undoubted actual meaning.
 

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It seems like a creative way to test whether the unborn is a human or not.
Naaa. The fact is that the regulation about using the HOV lane when the driver is alone uses a different test.

It is concerned with ride-sharing and limiting the number of cars on the road and does not have any interest in defining when life begins, nor does the language of the law make any reference to that.
 

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I think it comes down to how the law is written for the HOV lane in each state. Does the "person" have to be in a separate seat to count?
 

tango

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Naaa. The fact is that the regulation about using the HOV lane when the driver is alone uses a different test.

It is concerned with ride-sharing and limiting the number of cars on the road and does not have any interest in defining when life begins, nor does the language of the law make any reference to that.

The law about HOV might not do that but the question of whether the driver is alone is fundamentally a question of whether the fetus is a person or not.

As I understand it you can't use the HOV lane if you have mannequins filling every free seat - you need people. Real, living people. If the fetus counts as a real living person then a pregnant woman can use the HOV lane because there is more than one person in the vehicle.
 

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The law about HOV might not do that but the question of whether the driver is alone is fundamentally a question of whether the fetus is a person or not.
No, it isn't. That's what I was attempting to explain. I'm sorry if I didn't do it very well.
As I understand it you can't use the HOV lane if you have mannequins filling every free seat - you need people. Real, living people. If the fetus counts as a real living person then a pregnant woman can use the HOV lane because there is more than one person in the vehicle.
That line of thought STILL doesn't rescue your argument. A mannequin doesn't amount to either "passengers," "fetuses," OR children.

On another thread, you replied to a post by saying, "I don't shop at certain places because I don't like some aspect of the company. It doesn't make me god, it merely means I decide who I want to do business with." That opinion of yours was correct, but now you are taking the opposite stance during this discussion here,
 
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tango

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No, it isn't. That's what I was attempting to explain. I'm sorry if I didn't do it very well.

How do you figure that? If the fetus is a person there are two people in the car. If the fetus is not a person there is one person in the car.

That line of thought STILL doesn't rescue your argument. A mannequin doesn't amount to either "passengers," "fetuses," OR children.

A mannequin isn't a person, so if a person is in a car with six mannequins there is still only one person in the car. Furthermore there is no dispute that a mannequin isn't a person (you'd probably struggle to find very many people who claimed it was, however lifelike it may be).

On another thread, you replied to a post by saying, "I don't shop at certain places because I don't like some aspect of the company. It doesn't make me god, it merely means I decide who I want to do business with." That opinion of yours was correct, but now you are taking the opposite stance during this discussion here,

I'm not sure I see your reasoning here.
 

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How do you figure that? If the fetus is a person there are two people in the car.

But the legislation/rules concerning car pooling or ride sharing takes no account of whether or not anyone is pregnant.

You have to assess this situation while keeping in mind the purpose of the people who wrote the law or who are administering it. Is there someone sitting in the passenger seat or back seat(s) or not? That's their concern.
 
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tango

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But the legislation/rules concerning car pooling or ride sharing takes no account of whether or not anyone is pregnant.

You have to assess this situation while keeping in mind the purpose of the people who wrote the law or who are administering it. Is there someone sitting in the passenger seat or back seat(s) or not? That's their concern.

Yes, I think I made it quite clear there's no dispute over whether HOV regulations take a position on whether a fetus is a bunch of cells or a living human.

Hence the question about exactly what definitions should be used. Many legal quirks arise from situations that either weren't considered when the law was written or were presumably not considered to be relevant. It might be pretty widely understood what the intention of the HOV laws are but what matters is what the rule actually says. If the rule says something like "two or more persons must be present within the vehicle" without explicitly stating they must be occupying multiple seats or otherwise excluding a human inside the womb of another human, it provides a pretty easy basis for a pregnant woman to argue that two or more persons are present within the vehicle.

If this woman is successful in her appeal it's hard to see a future that doesn't include the HOV regulations being revised to explicitly state that more than one seat in the vehicle must be occupied by a living human (which would also incidentally prohibit funeral directors driving solo with a body in the back of the hearse from using HOV lanes). That doesn't change the potential for this to be a legal loophole. Ultimately I imagine what this woman wants to do is avoid paying a fine using any grounds possible.
 

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Yes, I think I made it quite clear there's no dispute over whether HOV regulations take a position on whether a fetus is a bunch of cells or a living human.
Then there's no conclusion to be drawn about the identity of the unborn child so far as the people who wrote the regulations are concerned..
If this woman is successful in her appeal it's hard to see a future that doesn't include the HOV regulations being revised to explicitly state that more than one seat in the vehicle must be occupied by a living human (which would also incidentally prohibit funeral directors driving solo with a body in the back of the hearse from using HOV lanes).
Why don't we just wait until her appeal is decided? ;)
 
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tango

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