Decision Theology

Josiah

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So I take it that Lutherans...


The teaching of Election from a Lutheran perspective...


Some Scriptures:


Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc.


Some Notes:


1.
Lutherans understand this as an aspect of JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not in the philosophical sense of everything being predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture).


2. Some confuse foreknowledge with predestination. They are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means to KNOW something before it happens. Predestination means to CAUSE it to happen. An illustration: I have foreknowledge (in MY case, imperfectly) that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I have nothing to do with it and do not cause it. They speak of two entirely different things.


3. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminianist/Calvinist fight). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic manner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love, mercy and blessing, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


4. While Calvinist apply election to God's grace, Lutherans join with historic Christianity and apply it to faith. God predestines who will be granted the divine gift of faith, not whom God will love or for whom Christ will die. More on the difference between Lutheran and Calvinist ideas here: Why Lutheran Predestination isnt Calvinist Predestination | Mathew Block


5. There are two purposes/functions of this teaching:

A. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a severe (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities. Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a station wagon, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the chances of me living were poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister both prayed out loud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And many friends, relatives and people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). Our pastor was there. Mom stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredibly handsome guy. They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me, I had some ( now embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did. I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. It's good to know.

B. It underlines SOLI DEO GLORIA, that justification (narrow) is GOD'S work and gift, not a reward for dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God adequately jumping though a hoop or hoops. Since the key is before we were born, obviously it's not based in our works but God's heart.


6. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD (see point #5 above) but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. God's love and gifts flow from His heart, not our merits. This teaching causes humility and confidence.


7. It is (perhaps) logical to conclude that since God only gives faith to SOME, ergo He desires all others to fly in hell. If not by actively CAUSING such then by simply "passing over" them. Logical, perhaps, but very unbiblical. The Bible says that Jesus came to ALL, that He died for ALL, that God desires ALL to be saved. So while this point (made by St. Augustine and by latter-day radical Calvinists) makes some sense it flat out contradicts Scripture... and it turns a doctrine of great comfort into a horrible terror, changes God from loving to a monster. Again, we have mystery here: God's grace is universal.... God desires all to be saved... Jesus died for all.... God gives faith to some. In the opinion of historic, orthodox Christianity, it is best to leave this where Scripture does and to accept we just don't understand how this cranks out in practice RATHER THAN impose teachings that directly contradict Scripture (the definition of heresy).



Blessings!


Josiah



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Lanman87

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No. It's more like 'you cannot come to saving Faith through your own efforts, but you can reject it.'
So you don't make decision to have faith but you can decide to not have faith??? Doesn't that mean we have to, in some form or fashion, accept the faith that is offered/given?
 

Josiah

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So you don't make decision to have faith but you can decide to not have faith??? Doesn't that mean we have to, in some form or fashion, accept the faith that is offered/given?

Yes, faith is given. It is, as the Bible verbatim states. "the gift of God." It is the unique work and blessing of the Holy Spirit. "No one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit."



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Albion

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So you don't make decision to have faith but you can decide to not have faith??? Doesn't that mean we have to, in some form or fashion, accept the faith that is offered/given?
Not quite what I was saying in that post, and I was referring to a believer later abandoning the faith, as opposed to refusing Faith in the first place. But my reply was only a quickie response to your question. Josiah's post 61 handles it in more detail.
 

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So you don't make decision to have faith but you can decide to not have faith??? Doesn't that mean we have to, in some form or fashion, accept the faith that is offered/given?

You cannot decide to "not" have faith since that's the condition we're born in.
 

Lees

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Man's will is bound to sin, that's why. It's God's will that breaks down our will, bringing us to repentance and turning us to Him.

Those verses you quoted are to those who already are believers.

So what?

Man 's will is still invovled.

That God overpowers our will, does not negate our will.

Whether to believers or non-believers is immaterial. Mans will is involved.

If man's will is not involved, then forget it all. Just live your life here, don't worry about any future destination. Just wind up where you wind up.

Will there be any one in Heaven, with God and Christ, who did not make a decision?

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So what?

Man 's will is still invovled.

That God overpowers our will, does not negate our will.

Whether to believers or non-believers is immaterial. Mans will is involved.

If man's will is not involved, then forget it all. Just live your life here, don't worry about any future destination. Just wind up where you wind up.

Will there be any one in Heaven, with God and Christ, who did not make a decision?

Lees

Our decision does not put us into the spot of saved.

Jesus casts His net out for fish, some are in the net but not because of their will, but His. Some flop out. Jesus casts His net again and retrieves more fish. Some are in the net, some flop out. Etc. The ones in the net aren't there because they chose it. Do you see?
 

Lees

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Our decision does not put us into the spot of saved.

Jesus casts His net out for fish, some are in the net but not because of their will, but His. Some flop out. Jesus casts His net again and retrieves more fish. Some are in the net, some flop out. Etc. The ones in the net aren't there because they chose it. Do you see?

You didn't answer my question.

Will there be anyone in Heaven with God and Christ who did not make a decision?

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You didn't answer my question.

Will there be anyone in Heaven with God and Christ who did not make a decision?

Lees

You seem to be under the impression that only those who made a decision will be there?

We're saved by grace through faith. Decision isn't part of that equation. God chooses us and we receive Him. Any type of "decision" is already made by a person who is already "in Christ". So, every person who has eternal life is with Him without a decision by them to be there. You did not choose me is how John 15:16 goes. Oh, sure, they can say they choose God after the fact...but then again, it's after faith has already been received.
 

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You seem to be under the impression that only those who made a decision will be there?

We're saved by grace through faith. Decision isn't part of that equation. God chooses us and we receive Him. Any type of "decision" is already made by a person who is already "in Christ". So, every person who has eternal life is with Him without a decision by them to be there. You did not choose me is how John 15:16 goes. Oh, sure, they can say they choose God after the fact...but then again, it's after faith has already been received.

You still didn't answer my question. Will any be in Heaven with God and Christ who did not make a decision?

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You still didn't answer my question. Will any be in Heaven with God and Christ who did not make a decision?

Lees

I did answer it. Our decision isn't what gets us into heaven.
 

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I did answer it. Our decision isn't what gets us into heaven.

I think I see what you're saying or not saying.

Personally, I believe there will be those in Heaven who did not make a decision. Infants, and children who are elect but had not yet reached the age to decide. As well as those who are mentally incapeable but are elect also.

But to all others who lived to maturity, a decision was made. Of course God's election occurs first, but they still would have exercised their will.
I heard J. Vernon McGee describe it years ago. It is as though we enter a door that has a sign above it. It reads: "Whosoever will come after me" (Mark 8:34) Then as one goes through that door and looks back, there is another sign above the door on the other side. It read: "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4)

Both are true.

Now, this brings up something, to me, I really have never considered before. Will there be those who are elect, and reached the age of maturity, but who died before making any decision to follow Christ, or before they believed, in Heaven?

But, to that, we just can't know. In other words, if a family member who I loved denied Christ, never came to Christ, and died, how would I know if he were elect or not? Our knowledge of our position and others position as believers, comes through our faith and decision making process.

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I think I see what you're saying or not saying.

Personally, I believe there will be those in Heaven who did not make a decision. Infants, and children who are elect but had not yet reached the age to decide. As well as those who are mentally incapeable but are elect also.

But to all others who lived to maturity, a decision was made. Of course God's election occurs first, but they still would have exercised their will.
I heard J. Vernon McGee describe it years ago. It is as though we enter a door that has a sign above it. It reads: "Whosoever will come after me" (Mark 8:34) Then as one goes through that door and looks back, there is another sign above the door on the other side. It read: "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4)

Both are true.

Now, this brings up something, to me, I really have never considered before. Will there be those who are elect, and reached the age of maturity, but who died before making any decision to follow Christ, or before they believed, in Heaven?

But, to that, we just can't know. In other words, if a family member who I loved denied Christ, never came to Christ, and died, how would I know if he were elect or not? Our knowledge of our position and others position as believers, comes through our faith and decision making process.

Lees

Your decision did not bring you to Christ. That's the argument you're making. God gave you faith so you could believe. You didn't have to reason it out in your mind to come to any conclusion because God put it into your mind...Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven. Anything after that has not contributed to where God put you.

I didn't make a decision because God brought me to Him and from there He continues to feed me to strengthen my faith. Oh sure, I read my bible, but who put it into me to desire that? The Holy Spirit.

Mark 8...well, Jesus was speaking to a group of Jews, not pagans, so they were already believers in God. The Messiah was directly in front of them.

Again, in Ephesians, Paul is writing to a group of believers.

Decision Theology is man's way of inserting himself into the equation because he feels that he needs to do something. That's what all the other religions teach. We do nothing to receive the Justification that God gives us. Redemption is His work.

In Sanctification, living our daily lives as Christians, we follow His ways. But Sanctification has no influence on Justification.
 

Lees

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Your decision did not bring you to Christ. That's the argument you're making. God gave you faith so you could believe. You didn't have to reason it out in your mind to come to any conclusion because God put it into your mind...Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven. Anything after that has not contributed to where God put you.

I didn't make a decision because God brought me to Him and from there He continues to feed me to strengthen my faith. Oh sure, I read my bible, but who put it into me to desire that? The Holy Spirit.

Mark 8...well, Jesus was speaking to a group of Jews, not pagans, so they were already believers in God. The Messiah was directly in front of them.

Again, in Ephesians, Paul is writing to a group of believers.

Decision Theology is man's way of inserting himself into the equation because he feels that he needs to do something. That's what all the other religions teach. We do nothing to receive the Justification that God gives us. Redemption is His work.

In Sanctification, living our daily lives as Christians, we follow His ways. But Sanctification has no influence on Justification.

Our decision does not trump Gods work in election and the gift of faith. But our will and decision making process are active. Else you're just a saved turnip.

I agrree that it is our faith that saves. We are elect first, though we may not know it. God knows it. Later God gives us the faith to believe, which is why we believe. That is all God's part. That doesn't negate our part. And our part doesn't take away from God's part. Our will and mind are not divorced from God's part when we believe. So, though I recognize it is all of God, once I believe, and at the very moment I believe, I act on it somehow.


You have taken faith and salvation to an extreme level in my opinion. It is though you are so against 'works' that you remove the believer completely. Why should I need to understand that Jesus died for me? Why tell me that? After all, if I am required to understand, then I must be required to exercise my will. And that must be a work.


(Mark 8:34) is not just to believers. "And when had called the people unto him with his disciples....."

(Mark 8:35) "For whosoever shall save his life shall lose it..."

(Mark 8:36) "For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

Yes I know (Eph. 1:3) is to believers that is why I presented it.

Of course redeeption is God's work. I have never said anything else. But I recognize God works with our will and mind, and decision making.
You call my view 'decision theology'. I view yours as 'mindless theology'.

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Our "part" does not add to what God has done.

The Holy Spirit will continue to guide believers, so no one is just a saved turnip as you wrote.

I have done nothing against believers except tell the truth about God's salvation and how man keeps thinking he has to DO something or else it's just not true. Salvation is 100% God's doing. We don't have a "part" to "do". We receive because God gives. We are passively receiving not actively grabbing.

Dead men can't "do" anything to be brought to life.

Now, you've moved onto sanctification it appears and in that, I live my life daily as a believer. That doesn't ADD to what God has done for my salvation. Sanctification does not give me justification.
 

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Our "part" does not add to what God has done.

The Holy Spirit will continue to guide believers, so no one is just a saved turnip as you wrote.

I have done nothing against believers except tell the truth about God's salvation and how man keeps thinking he has to DO something or else it's just not true. Salvation is 100% God's doing. We don't have a "part" to "do". We receive because God gives. We are passively receiving not actively grabbing.

Dead men can't "do" anything to be brought to life.

Now, you've moved onto sanctification it appears and in that, I live my life daily as a believer. That doesn't ADD to what God has done for my salvation. Sanctification does not give me justification.

Then dead men can't hear or understand the Gospel when it is given. Why even preach the Gospel to dead men?

No, I am not talking about sanctification.

Our being dead in tresspasses and sin doesn't mean we have died physically. We are very much alive. But we don't have eternal life. Because we are very much alive, and can think and respond, the Gospel is preached.

You carry the 'dead man' analogy to far. I hear that from hyper calvinist's. Why did God ask Adam where he was after he fell? How could Adam and Eve communicate with God? We are dead in that we are separated from God, not because we cease to exist.

What you're saying, I believe, is that we are born-again first and then believe. To which I disagree.

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Then dead men can't hear or understand the Gospel when it is given. Why even preach the Gospel to dead men?

No, I am not talking about sanctification.

Our being dead in tresspasses and sin doesn't mean we have died physically. We are very much alive. But we don't have eternal life. Because we are very much alive, and can think and respond, the Gospel is preached.

You carry the 'dead man' analogy to far. I hear that from hyper calvinist's. Why did God ask Adam where he was after he fell? How could Adam and Eve communicate with God? We are dead in that we are separated from God, not because we cease to exist.

What you're saying, I believe, is that we are born-again first and then believe. To which I disagree.

Lees

Dead men can't breathe either until new life is breathed into them by God.

Why preach the Gospel? Because it gives life. God's word is alive and active. That's why.

We are spiritually dead until God gives us new life. We can't give ourselves new life. That's why decision theology is incorrect.
 

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Dead men can't breathe either until new life is breathed into them by God.

Why preach the Gospel? Because it gives life. God's word is alive and active. That's why.

We are spiritually dead until God gives us new life. We can't give ourselves new life. That's why decision theology is incorrect.

Again, if dead men can't breathe, neither can they hear.

If they can't hear, what good is the Gospel?

Your analogy is 'dead'. It doesn't work.

Your 'mindless theology' is wrong.

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Again, if dead men can't breathe, neither can they hear.

If they can't hear, what good is the Gospel?

Your analogy is 'dead'. It doesn't work.

Your 'mindless theology' is wrong.

Lees

God's word brings life. Do you agree with that or not?
 

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James 1:18 God decided to give us life through the word of truth so we might be the most important of all the things he made.
 
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