Since there’s evidence that 1 Maccabees was probably written in Hebrew originally…

[NathanH83]

Peter quoting Deuteronomy is one reason we can say Peter thought Deuteronomy is Scripture. But taken alone it doesn't necessarily mean he believes it is Scripture. Another reason we can say the Peter is quoting "Scripture" is that we know he was a Palestinian Jew and we know, historically, that all Jews believed that Deuteronomy is scripture.

We also know Deuteronomy is Scripture because Jesus quoted Deuteronomy often.

So how do we know Deuteronomy is Scripture.

Jesus Quoted it as "It is Written"
Peter Quoted it
We have historical confirmation that it was accepted by the Jews as Scripture
It was universally accepted by Christians as Scripture

Even the Old Testament books that aren't quoted in the New Testament we know that:
Historically, they were accepted by the Jews as Scripture
A consensus developed in the Christian church (except for the DC books) that they are Scripture

With Enoch we know that
Jude quotes it
It was widely read by the Jews

What we don't have any proof of is that Jude or the Jews considered is Scripture and it certainly was never universally accepted by Christians as Scripture.

It could be (and probably is) Jude make a cultural/historical reference instead of a scriptural reference.

Just because something is quote or alluded to by the New Testament writers does not make it Scripture.

The Jews had stories and legends and historical writings and books just like we do today. And just like contemporary writers use those things to make a point or give context to writing/speech/sermon the writers of the New Testament, even Jesus himself, did the same thing.

If a respected preacher quotes "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in his sermon and uses it to make a point about Christian ethics or Christian faith that doesn't mean the preacher considers it Scripture. Even though it is a great, even inspired, Christian allegory.

The point though is the double standard. They use this as a way of saying the Apocrypha doesn’t belong: “Because the New Testament doesn’t quote it with one of these phrases”

And then we find that Jude quotes Enoch with one of those phrases. And the quote matches up better than most New Testament quotes of the Old Testament.

Double standards, double standards.
Lies upon more lies.

Even Barnabas quotes Enoch as scripture in one of his letters.

 

[Lanman87]

The point though is the double standard. They use this as a way of saying the Apocrypha doesn’t belong: “Because the New Testament doesn’t quote it with one of these phrases”

And then we find that Jude quotes Enoch with one of those phrases. And the quote matches up better than most New Testament quotes of the Old Testament.

Double standards, double standards.
Lies upon more lies.

Even Barnabas quotes Enoch as scripture in one of his letters.

You have to look at the totality of reasons, not just one reason.

 

[Origen]

You love your double standard, don’t you?

There is no double standard concerning your claim. You were very clear about it.

Here is your statement word for word, verbatim.

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

Your post is nothing more than inadequate attempt to change the subject away from your demonstrably and utterly false claim.

 

[Origen]

Moot point.

For you, no doubt.

Jude is quoting HIS copy word for word.

Then by all means produce Jude's copy of Enoch (or any copy of Enoch for that matter) which is word for word just like Jude's quotation so that others make check the veracity of your claim.

 

[Josiah]

Just because something is quote or alluded to by the New Testament writers does not make it Scripture.

Obviously!

Jude states that he is referencing ENOCH, a person, an individual, a PERSON who had this prophecy. He does not reference a book at all. He does NOT say, "It is written...." or "The LORD said..." So, even if he was quoting from a book, he does NOT reference the book and clearly does not say ANYTHING about some book

The claim that Jude is "quoting Enoch as Scripture" is yet another, still another, one more case of an entirely unsubstantiated claim

(I've lost track of how many there have been of those; the list of such claims is incredibly long).




How about all these BOOKS.... Which ARE mentioned, specifically, by name, in the Bible itself. Are all of them thus inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God? There are 75 different book sources referenced just in 1 & 2 Chronicals, by name, which are NOT in our Bible - no one's Bible. And not just in Chronicles. Among NAMED BOOKS specifically referenced by name are...


The Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15)
The Book of the Upright One (Joshua 10:13)
The Annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
The Annals of the Kings of Israel (1 Kings 14:19 and 2 Chron. 20:34)
The Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Kings 15:7)
The Records of Samuel (1 Chron. 20:29)
The REcords of Shemaiah (2 Chron 12:15)
The Acts of Uzziah (2 Chron 26:22)
And more....

IF referencing a book makes that book Scripture ... then there are LOT of them our two friends should be talking about.... BUT, Jude does not reference any book, he mentions a MAN, a PERSON, and INDIVIDUAL. He says nothing about any book - as Scripture or otherwise.

The Jews had stories and legends and historical writings and books just like we do today. And just like contemporary writers use those things to make a point or give context to writing/speech/sermon the writers of the New Testament, even Jesus himself, did the same thing.

If a respected preacher quotes "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in his sermon and uses it to make a point about Christian ethics or Christian faith that doesn't mean the preacher considers it Scripture. Even though it is a great, even inspired, Christian allegory.

EXACTLY!


... and of course, a book can contain something TRUE without the book itself being Scripture. If a book stated, "The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" that's true - and can even be quoted as a reliable source of info - without it therefore being inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired Scripture that must (by law) appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover.




.

 

[NathanH83]

For you, no doubt.


Then by all means produce Jude's copy of Enoch (or any copy of Enoch for that matter) which is word for word just like Jude's quotation so that others make check the veracity of your claim.

View attachment 1839

Produce Peter’s copy of Deuteronomy.

Double standard.

 

[NathanH83]

Obviously!

Jude states that he is referencing ENOCH, a person, an individual, a PERSON who had this prophecy. He does not reference a book at all. He does NOT say, "It is written...." or "The LORD said..." So, even if he was quoting from a book, he does NOT reference the book and clearly does not say ANYTHING about some book

The claim that Jude is "quoting Enoch as Scripture" is yet another, still another, one more case of an entirely unsubstantiated claim

(I've lost track of how many there have been of those; the list of such claims is incredibly long).




How about all these BOOKS.... Which ARE mentioned, specifically, by name, in the Bible itself. Are all of them thus inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God? There are 75 different book sources referenced just in 1 & 2 Chronicals, by name, which are NOT in our Bible - no one's Bible. And not just in Chronicles. Among NAMED BOOKS specifically referenced by name are...


The Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15)
The Book of the Upright One (Joshua 10:13)
The Annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
The Annals of the Kings of Israel (1 Kings 14:19 and 2 Chron. 20:34)
The Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Kings 15:7)
The Records of Samuel (1 Chron. 20:29)
The REcords of Shemaiah (2 Chron 12:15)
The Acts of Uzziah (2 Chron 26:22)
And more....

IF referencing a book makes that book Scripture ... then there are LOT of them our two friends should be talking about.... BUT, Jude does not reference any book, he mentions a MAN, a PERSON, and INDIVIDUAL. He says nothing about any book - as Scripture or otherwise.









EXACTLY!


... and of course, a book can contain something TRUE without the book itself being Scripture. If a book stated, "The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" that's true - and can even be quoted as a reliable source of info - without it therefore being inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired Scripture that must (by law) appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover.




.

Hahaha!!!!!
The very thing they use to discredit the Apocrypha is that the New Testament never quotes from it. And yet here we find it quotes from it.

So many double standards. Just hilarious.

 

[Andrew]

Hahaha!!!!!
The very thing they use to discredit the Apocrypha is that the New Testament never quotes from it. And yet here we find it quotes from it.

So many double standards. Just hilarious.

He forgot to include the prayer of Manassah

 

[Andrew]

Obviously!

Jude states that he is referencing ENOCH, a person, an individual, a PERSON who had this prophecy. He does not reference a book at all. He does NOT say, "It is written...." or "The LORD said..." So, even if he was quoting from a book, he does NOT reference the book and clearly does not say ANYTHING about some book

The claim that Jude is "quoting Enoch as Scripture" is yet another, still another, one more case of an entirely unsubstantiated claim

(I've lost track of how many there have been of those; the list of such claims is incredibly long).




How about all these BOOKS.... Which ARE mentioned, specifically, by name, in the Bible itself. Are all of them thus inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God? There are 75 different book sources referenced just in 1 & 2 Chronicals, by name, which are NOT in our Bible - no one's Bible. And not just in Chronicles. Among NAMED BOOKS specifically referenced by name are...


The Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15)
The Book of the Upright One (Joshua 10:13)
The Annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
The Annals of the Kings of Israel (1 Kings 14:19 and 2 Chron. 20:34)
The Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Kings 15:7)
The Records of Samuel (1 Chron. 20:29)
The REcords of Shemaiah (2 Chron 12:15)
The Acts of Uzziah (2 Chron 26:22)
And more....

IF referencing a book makes that book Scripture ... then there are LOT of them our two friends should be talking about.... BUT, Jude does not reference any book, he mentions a MAN, a PERSON, and INDIVIDUAL. He says nothing about any book - as Scripture or otherwise.









EXACTLY!


... and of course, a book can contain something TRUE without the book itself being Scripture. If a book stated, "The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" that's true - and can even be quoted as a reliable source of info - without it therefore being inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired Scripture that must (by law) appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover.




.

Define Scripture again.

 

[Andrew]

Josiah, you are correct , Enoch is a person, just like everyone is a person, Job is another great example of an individual!

 

[NathanH83]

Josiah, you are correct , Enoch is a person, just like everyone is a person, Job is another great example of an individual!

Peter didn’t quote the book of Deuteronomy! Peter just quoted the PERSON Moses! That explains why Acts 3 is slightly different from what Deuteronomy says!!

Uhuh, yea. Right. Sure.
Because that explains it.

 

[Josiah]

Peter didn’t quote the book of Deuteronomy!

@NathanH83

Please provide the quote from me where I said he did.



Jude states that he is referencing ENOCH, a person, an individual, a PERSON who had this prophecy. Jude does not reference a book at all. He does NOT say, "It is written...." or "The LORD said..." So, even if he was quoting from a book, he does NOT reference the book and clearly does not say ANYTHING about some book, as you've proven, he does NOT say that the book of Enoch is Scripture (or anything else).

Another, still another, false or unsubstantiated claim. I've lost track of how many there have been of those; the list of such claims is incredibly long.

Lanman87 said:

If a respected preacher quotes "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in his sermon and uses it to make a point about Christian ethics or Christian faith that doesn't mean the preacher considers it Scripture. Even though it is a great, even inspired, Christian allegory.

EXACTLY!


... and of course, a book can contain something TRUE without the book itself being Scripture. If a book stated, "The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" that's true - and can even be quoted as a reliable source of information - without it therefore being inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired Scripture that must (by law) appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover.



So.... we can another to the list of unsubstantiated claims (or obviously false claims)

+ Jude states that the Book of Enoch is Scripture.




.

 

[NathanH83]

@NathanH83

Please provide the quote from me where I said he did.



Jude states that he is referencing ENOCH, a person, an individual, a PERSON who had this prophecy. Jude does not reference a book at all. He does NOT say, "It is written...." or "The LORD said..." So, even if he was quoting from a book, he does NOT reference the book and clearly does not say ANYTHING about some book, as you've proven, he does NOT say that the book of Enoch is Scripture (or anything else).

Another, still another, false or unsubstantiated claim. I've lost track of how many there have been of those; the list of such claims is incredibly long.









EXACTLY!


... and of course, a book can contain something TRUE without the book itself being Scripture. If a book stated, "The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" that's true - and can even be quoted as a reliable source of information - without it therefore being inerrant, fully-canonical, divinely inspired Scripture that must (by law) appear in any tome with the word "BIBLE" on the cover.



So.... we can another to the list of unsubstantiated claims (or obviously false claims)

+ Jude states that the Book of Enoch is Scripture.




.

Is there a point you’re trying to make? Most New Testament quotes of the Old Testament don’t mention the book. Like 2 Peter 2 mentions Balaam and how his donkey spoke with a man’s voice. Peter doesn’t mention the BOOK of Numbers. But we know that story comes from Numbers chapter 22. That’s the way it usually is.

So…what’s your point???

 

[Andrew]

Is there a point you’re trying to make? Most New Testament quotes of the Old Testament don’t mention the book. Like 2 Peter 2 mentions Balaam and how his donkey spoke with a man’s voice. Peter doesn’t mention the BOOK of Numbers. But we know that story comes from Numbers chapter 22. That’s the way it usually is.

So…what’s your point???

By this method we can confirm the Book of Hebrews endorsement of 2 Maccabees as OT Scripture especially when considering the fact that Jesus attended the Maccabean founded feast of Dedication of which the only recorded account of its declaration is, by Judaic Custom, in the Hebrew Scripture of 1 Maccabees.
Origen even used the Hebrew word for the two books, which would be expected since any Prophecy that has passed in the OT era is always found in the OT books preceeding

 

[NathanH83]

By this method we can confirm the Book of Hebrews endorsement of 2 Maccabees as OT Scripture especially when considering the fact that Jesus attended the Maccabean founded feast of Dedication of which the only recorded account of its declaration is, by Judaic Custom, in the Hebrew Scripture of 1 Maccabees.
Origen even used the Hebrew word for the two books, which would be expected since any Prophecy that has passed in the OT era is always found in the OT books preceeding

Jesus didn’t have the book of Maccabees in his Bible!
Jesus and the disciples never heard of the Book of Maccabees!
They weren’t familiar with that book!
Maccabees was made up by Catholics in the 1500’s!
Maccabees is Fiction!

 

[Andrew]

Jesus didn’t have the book of Maccabees in his Bible!
Jesus and the disciples never heard of the Book of Maccabees!
They weren’t familiar with that book!
Maccabees was made up by Catholics in the 1500’s!
Maccabees is Fiction!

dang! I keep forgetting those proofs! I really thought I nailed it this time.. tssk tssk

 

[atpollard]

Potato Potato

“Verbatim” (word for word) is NOT the same as “paraphrasing”.

One indicates a direct source for the words, the other indicates a common source for the concept.

Apple Orange

 

[Origen]

Produce Peter’s copy of Deuteronomy.

Double standard.

The above claim, like so many others made by Nathan, makes zero sense and is clearly false.

First, I NEVER claimed Peter quotes Deuteronomy word for word or that a word for word quote was necessary.
Second, in fact I emphatically state that Peter did NOT quote Deuteronomy word for word.
Third, the phase "word-for-word" is Nathan's claim not mine.
Thus there is no double standard only a very sad attempt by Nathan to muddy the water.

Nathan, on the other hand, clearly stated:

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

His claim is demonstrably and utterly false.

Jude is quoting HIS copy word for word.

This claim is pure fantasy having zero evidence of any kind to support it.

 

[Andrew]

“Verbatim” (word for word) is NOT the same as “paraphrasing”.

One indicates a direct source for the words, the other indicates a common source for the concept.

Apple Orange

Nt Testament quotes of the Masoretic is apples and oranges

 

[atpollard]

Nt Testament quotes of the Masoretic is apples and oranges

Then we should avoid the terms “verbatim” and “word for word” wherever they are inappropriate, and stick to making TRUE statements about scripture.

Not all Gospel accounts of the words of Jesus are “verbatim”.