Common Figure of Speech?

[rstrats]

It does apply to me because it is based on (Matt. 12:40), Jesus being in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights.

It doesn't apply to you because you don't believe that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. This topic is directed to anyone who believes that it is referring exclusively to the tomb.

All Chrisitians believe (Matt. 12:40). None believe your argument, as stated in the opening post, and in the last two lines in your post #(150).

I've only made three "arguments", i.e., assertions with regard to the issue of this topic; firstly that in order for anyone to say that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur that they would have to know of examples of such usage to legitimately make that statement. And secondly, that with the possible exception of one, that any of the examples given were not actually examples.

The third assertion is that If someone believes that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb, then that would mean that a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
Since you don't believe that about "in the heart of the earth" then your argument is with them and not with me.

Well, you apparently don't know what the 'heart of the earth' is referring to and so you need an explanation.

That's true- I don't know to what "in the heart of the earth" is referring. And neither do you. However, I think it's referring exclusively to the tomb and you think that it isn't. But that is an issue for a different topic. Why don't you start one and hash it out there?

Thus it changes your boundaries.

And that would be an issue for a different topic.

It didn't say Jesus is going to be in the tomb 3 days and nights. And, by the way, how is a tomb considered the 'heart of the earth'? You based your argument on (Matt. 12:40). You cant do that and then say 'the heart of the earth' is not an issue here.

It's only an issue in so far as it is one of the requirements for those to whom this topic is intended/directed.

I don't need an example to show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be invovled with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

You do if you want to legitimately support that idea.

It's you that believe that there were not 3 days and nights.

Please point out where I said that.

Not us.

Do you believe Jonah was in the whales belly 3 days and nights?

I see no scriptural reason to believe otherwise.

No. Can you account for those three days and nights.

And for the ump·teenth time, account for WHAT with regard to the three days and three nights? Why do you keep ignoring my question?

No.

Do you believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth.

I see no scriptural reason to believe otherwise.

If you think your little argument satisfies you in your unbelief, fine. But your argument is based upon unbelief.

Unbelief about WHAT?

BTW, in your post #158 you said that "Jesus wasn't crucified on the first day of the week." I asked where I've said that He was? You haven't answered.

You also said, that that is what I want Christians to believe. Where have I said that I want anyone to believe anything, much less that the Messiah was crucified on the 1st day of the week? You haven't answered.

 

[Lees]

It doesn't apply to you because you don't believe that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. This topic is directed to anyone who believes that it is referring exclusively to the tomb.

I've only made three "arguments", i.e., assertions with regard to the issue of this topic; firstly that in order for anyone to say that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur that they would have to know of examples of such usage to legitimately make that statement. And secondly, that with the possible exception of one, that any of the examples given were not actually examples.

The third assertion is that If someone believes that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb, then that would mean that a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
Since you don't believe that about "in the heart of the earth" then your argument is with them and not with me.


That's true- I don't know to what "in the heart of the earth" is referring. And neither do you. However, I think it's referring exclusively to the tomb and you think that it isn't. But that is an issue for a different topic. Why don't you start one and hash it out there?

And that would be an issue for a different topic.


It's only an issue in so far as it is one of the requirements for those to whom this topic is intended/directed.

You do if you want to legitimately support that idea.

Please point out where I said that.

I see no scriptural reason to believe otherwise.

And for the ump·teenth time, account for WHAT with regard to the three days and three nights? Why do you keep ignoring my question?

I see no scriptural reason to believe otherwise.

Unbelief about WHAT?

It does apply to me because of your aserrtion that there are believers who don't believe a third day or night can be accounted for. No such believers exist. Even those who hold to the 3 days and nights as speaking to the time in the tomb, do not believe as you say. Christians believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth, just like Jesus said in (Matt 12:40)

Well, as i just said...no Christian believes your argument. We believe what (Matt 12:40) says. My argument is not with Christians, as they believe what (Matt:12:40) says. You don't. Thus my argument is with you.

Well, if you don't know what the 'heart of the earth' means, then how can you come up with your chronology? You can't.

No, you can't treat Scripture that way. That way being, picking only parts of it to describe something and ignoring the rest. The rest is all important. You ignore 'the heart of the earth'. You ignore the comparrison to Jonah and the whale. All you want to focus on is the so called, missing days and nights. Then you try and develop a chronology that proves it can't be so. Typical atheist. You don't know Scripture.

Again, you want to set the boudaries of your argument so that anyone who would enter into the discussion, must first agree with your argument. You already established the conclusion that they must agree with. Which is, a third day or night is not accounted for. And if they disagree, then this topic is not for them. Foolish.

I am not ignoring your question. I have answered your question many times. No believer believes your argument. Therefore, according to you no believer can enter into the argument.

Please point out where you believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. Please point out where you believe Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale. I asked if you believe it. Not if you find no 'Scriptural reason'. And here you are lying. If you find no reason to disbelieve that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights, then explain how He was. This should be good. You have stated that you have no Scriptural reason to disbelieve it.

Unbelief about what? How foolish. You're an atheist. Unless you now want to tell me you're not. As I said, if your silly little argument gives you some since of comfort, fine. Enjoy it. But I see it for what it is. You're just another atheist trying to cast doubt upon the Scripture. And that is an effort in futility.

Jesus wasn't crucified the 1st day of the week. No problem. We agree.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Lees,
re: "It does apply to me because of your aserrtion that there are believers who don't believe a third day or night can be accounted for. "

I never said that. Please show where you think that I have.

And even if I had (which I haven't) this topic would still not apply to you because you don't believe the phrase "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb. This topic is directed to anyone who does believe that.



re: "Even those who hold to the 3 days and [3] nights as speaking to the time in the tomb, do not believe as you say. Christians believe Jesus was 3 days and [3] nights in the heart of the earth, just like Jesus said in (Matt 12:40)"

So if those 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection believers who think the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb don't account for the lack of a 3rd night in the tomb by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech or colloquial language, how do they account for the lack of it?

The third assertion is that If someone believes that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb, then that would mean that a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
Since you don't believe that about "in the heart of the earth" then your argument is with them and not with me.


re: "Well, as i just said...no Christian believes your argument.

And what the heck do you think my "argument" is other than that a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 night times to be involved with the Messiah's time in the tomb?



re: "We believe what (Matt 12:40) says. My argument is not with Christians, as they believe what (Matt:12:40) says. You don't."
Sure I do. I believe that scripture says that the Messiah would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth". It's right there in black and white. I see nothing in the scriptural account which absolutely prevents that from being the case.


re: "Well, if you don't know what the 'heart of the earth' means, then how can you come up with your chronology?"

There are those who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb. Based on their thinking, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 night times to be involved with the Messiah's time in the tomb. That is what I am basing my question on - their thinking. It has nothing to do with what I think or don't think with regard to the meaning of "heart of the earth".



re: "No, you can't treat Scripture that way. That way being, picking only parts of it to describe something and ignoring the rest. The rest is all important. You ignore 'the heart of the earth'. "

I don't know how you can say that. It's one of the essential parts of this topic. It's right there in the OP.



re: "You ignore the comparrison to Jonah and the whale. "

Has nothing to do with this topic.



re: "All you want to focus on is the so called, missing days and nights."

Actually, there is only a missing night with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. There is no part of a 3rd daytime missing. And the focus/issue of this topic is the commonness of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.



re: "Then you try and develop a chronology that proves it can't be so."

That "what" can't be so with regard to "chronology"?



re: "Please point out where you believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth."

I have no belief one way or the other with regard to the actual reality of that.


re: "Please point out where you believe Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale."

I have no belief one way or the other with regard to the actual reality of that.

What I meant was that I see nothing in scripture which would disagree with Matthew 12:40. The same with the Jonah account and his 3 days and 3 nights.



re: "Unbelief about what? How foolish. You're an atheist. Unless you now want to tell me you're not. As I said, if your silly little argument gives you some since of comfort, fine."

And I still would like to know what unbelief you were referring to in your post #159? And now, what "comfort" about what?



re: "Jesus wasn't crucified the 1st day of the week. No problem. We agree."

So why did you bring it up in your post #158? What caused you to make the comment?



re: "You're just another atheist trying to cast doubt upon the Scripture."

What??? Absolutely not! What have I said that causes you to make such an assertion?

 

[Lees]

@rstrats

Yes you have said that. I have showed you many times. See your opening post and post #(99). This argument does apply to me because no Christian believes that the 3 days and nights are not accounted for. Even those who hold to that referring to the tomb. It is you that believe that. Not us believers.

Christians do not 'account for the lack of it'. We believe Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights. There is no lack. Jesus was crucified on Friday, Saturday was the Sabbath, and He rose on the first day of the week. Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights as Jonah was in the belly of the whale 3 days and nights.

Find me a Christian who believes Jesus was not 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth, no matter what they believe the heart of the earth to be, then my argument is with them. At present, it is with you, because it is you that is saying it. Not us.

No, your argument is that a believer holds to the 3 days and nights being in the tomb when the 3 days and nights are not accounted for. No believer believes that. That is your argument. The believer believes the 3 days and nights are acconted for no matter what, whether it be in the tomb or as I have stated. Jesus was clear in (Matt. 12:40).

I have already told you your argument many times.

Concerning the 3 days and nights, now you say 'Scripture says it'. But I asked if you believe it. You said you 'find no Scriptural reason to disbelieve it'. Post #(162) Therefore explain the 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. My queston remains. Since you see no reason to disbelieve it, explain how the 3 days and nights are accounted for. And if you believe it, why are you an 'atheist'?

You have admitted that you don't know what the 'heart of the earth' is. But you believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the tomb. So, explain how that is so.

You ignore the 'heart of the earth' in saying you don't know what it means. But that is part of (Matt. 12:40) If you don't know what it means then you don't know how to gauge the chronology.

You ignore Jonah and the whale when it has everything to do with this topic. (Matt. 12:40) "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." You are only using that which pertains to your argument and you ignore the rest.

There are no missing nights or days. Scripture is clear. Your argument is that there are. Not ours.

Sure you have a 'belief' concerning Christ 3 days and nights, as well as Jonah's. You're an atheist. Did you forget? Let me remind you. you don't believe any of this. You're only here to cast doubt upon all of it.

If you see nothing in Scripture to discount what Jesus said in (Matt. 12:40), then show us how Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights.

You ask what 'unbelief' I am talking about. What makes you an atheist? If your little argument gives some sort of comfort, well and good. Be happy. But you haven't changed what Christians believe. You haven't changed that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth.
Why are you so concerned about my saying Jesus was not crucified on the first day of the week? You agree. Perhaps I saw something that was there but is no longer there. Either way, we agree. You just don't believe it.

Everything you say causes me to make my assertion. Did I hurt your feelings?

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Lees,
re: "Yes you have said that. I have showed you many times. See your opening post and post #(99)."

Please point out where in the OP or post #99 that I asserted that there are believers who don't believe that a third day or a third night can be accounted for?


re: "This argument does apply to me..."

It doesn't because while you believe in a 6th day of the week burial/1st day of the week resurrection, you don't believe the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb nor do you say that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.



re: "Christians do not 'account for the lack of it'. "

That has been the case so far with regard to the ones to whom this topic is directed.



re: "No, your argument is that a believer holds to the 3 days and nights being in the tomb when the 3 days and [3] nights are not accounted for. No believer believes that. That is your argument."

I have made 2 assertions with regard to this topic. Firstly, that the time that the Messiah spent in the tomb between a 6th day of the week burial/1st day of the week resurrection allowed for only 2 night times to be involved. And secondly, that if someone tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that it was common usage of the period to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur, then they would have to know of examples to legitimately make that assertion.



re: "Concerning the 3 days and [3] nights, now you say 'Scripture says it'. But I asked if you believe it. You said you 'find no Scriptural reason to disbelieve it'. Post #(162) Therefore explain the 3 days and [3] nights in the heart of the earth."

Explain with regard to what? I don't know what you're asking.



re: "My queston remains. Since you see no reason to disbelieve it, explain how the 3 days and [3] nights are accounted for."

The burial would have to have taken place no later than the 5th day of the week.



re: "And if you believe it, why are you an 'atheist'?"

I believe that there is nothing in the scriptural story which precludes the burial from being some other day of the week than the 6th day. I never said that I believe that the story itself is true.



re: "You have admitted that you don't know what the 'heart of the earth' is."

That is true. I think it is referring to the tomb but I don't know that it is.



re: "But you believe Jesus was 3 days and [3] nights in the tomb. So, explain how that is so."

See above. And what I believe is that there is nothing in the scriptural story which precludes that.



re: "You ignore the 'heart of the earth' in saying you don't know what it means."

Again, I'm not ignoring the "heart of the earth". It is stated in the OP as one of the requirements for those to whom this topic is directed.



re: "But that is part of (Matt. 12:40) If you don't know what it means then you don't know how to gauge the chronology."

That's an issue for a different topic. Maybe you could start one.

 

[Lees]

@rstrats

I have answered your questions many times already. If any doubt that, they can go back and read.

My questions to you, that you do not answer, are these:

You have admitted that you don't know what 'the heart of the earth' is. But you admit that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the tomb. Explain how that is so.

If you see no reason to discount what Jesus said in (Matt. 12:40), then show us how Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' three days and nights.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

@rstrats



Christians do not 'account for the lack of it'. We believe Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights. There is no lack. Jesus was crucified on Friday, Saturday was the Sabbath, and He rose on the first day of the week. Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights as Jonah was in the belly of the whale 3 days and nights.

...

Lees

And, once again, there are not 3 daytime and 3 nighttime periods between Christ's death and resurrection IF the timeline starts on Friday evening and ends Sunday "while it was still dark".

Regarding the phrase "in the heart of the earth", it's relatively easy to determine what this means (as it relates to time-frame) because of other Scriptures that indicate that time-frame. Such as:

Matt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

It seems clear to me that the count starts with the death of Christ, or the burial, which comes very shortly thereafter the same day prior to nightfall, which is when the Sabbath begins.

Therefore:

Friday Night : 1 night
Saturday Day: 1 night, 1 day
Saturday Night: 2 nights, 1 day

Sunday "while it was still dark" (John 20:1) is still part of the Saturday night period.

Total: 2 nights, 1 day.

If the preparation day (what people think of as "Friday" according to our modern week) counts as a day, since Christ is crucified on it, then

Total: 2 nights, 2 days.


In any case, the Friday-Sunday timeline falls short.

 

[Lees]

And, once again, there are not 3 daytime and 3 nighttime periods between Christ's death and resurrection IF the timeline starts on Friday evening and ends Sunday "while it was still dark".

Regarding the phrase "in the heart of the earth", it's relatively easy to determine what this means (as it relates to time-frame) because of other Scriptures that indicate that time-frame. Such as:

Matt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

It seems clear to me that the count starts with the death of Christ, or the burial, which comes very shortly thereafter the same day prior to nightfall, which is when the Sabbath begins.

Therefore:

Friday Night : 1 night
Saturday Day: 1 night, 1 day
Saturday Night: 2 nights, 1 day

Sunday "while it was still dark" (John 20:1) is still part of the Saturday night period.

Total: 2 nights, 1 day.

If the preparation day (what people think of as "Friday" according to our modern week) counts as a day, since Christ is crucified on it, then

Total: 2 nights, 2 days.


In any case, the Friday-Sunday timeline falls short.

'Heart of the Earth' doesn't relate to time frame. It relates to place. Three days and nights relate to time frame.

You give (Mark 8:31) as proof of a time frame, yet it clearly states that Jesus rose 'after three days'. And (Mark 16:9) is just as clear. "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week...."

Scripture is clear. Jesus rose on the first day of the week. See also (Mark 16:2) "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

Jesus was clear. (Matt. 12:40) "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

These Scriptures are clear. Correct? Jesus would be 3 days and nights in the 'heart of the earth'? And Jesus rose on the first day of the week?

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

'Heart of the Earth' doesn't relate to time frame. It relates to place. Three days and nights relate to time frame.

Right, it relates to place, and in the same breath, Christ says that He will be in this "heart of the earth" 3 days and 3 nights. I included the other scriptures to make is crystal clear that the starting point, or "go" point of this "3 days and 3 nights", must be either at His death or His burial. Seeing as Christ died upon a cross and the disciples made haste to bury him in the tomb, the phrase "heart of the earth" makes the most sense for "place" (the tomb), and being the start of the count (the 3 days and 3 nights). It can't be earlier in the week, and it can't be later.

And therein lies the problem of the early "while it was still dark" Resurrection in terms of this 3 days and 3 nights. There simply isn't enough days and nights between Friday evening and Sunday "while it was still dark".

You give (Mark 8:31) as proof of a time frame, yet it clearly states that Jesus rose 'after three days'. And (Mark 16:9) is just as clear. "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week...."

Scripture is clear. Jesus rose on the first day of the week. See also (Mark 16:2) "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

Jesus was clear. (Matt. 12:40) "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

These Scriptures are clear. Correct? Jesus would be 3 days and nights in the 'heart of the earth'? And Jesus rose on the first day of the week?

Lees

The phrase "First day of the week" is crystal clear in every English Bible. However, my guess is that you've never studied the underlying Greek of this phrase. Because it is far more obscure than the English counterpart. For example, the word "day" is missing. The word "week" (which had a word in Koine Greek to represent it), is missing, and is replaced by Sabbaths (in the plural). And also, the word "first" is not an accurate representation, as the Greek word used here is "one". "First" and "one" are not the same word, and do not mean the same thing, just as someone may say "this is one of the apples that fell from the tree", it is not the same as the phrase "this is the first of the apples that fell from the tree".

The literal translation that your English says is "first day of the week" is actually "One (day) of the Sabbaths". (the word "day" being a grammatical addition to satisfy the gender used here).

 

[Lees]

Right, it relates to place, and in the same breath, Christ says that He will be in this "heart of the earth" 3 days and 3 nights. I included the other scriptures to make is crystal clear that the starting point, or "go" point of this "3 days and 3 nights", must be either at His death or His burial. Seeing as Christ died upon a cross and the disciples made haste to bury him in the tomb, the phrase "heart of the earth" makes the most sense for "place" (the tomb), and being the start of the count (the 3 days and 3 nights). It can't be earlier in the week, and it can't be later.

And therein lies the problem of the early "while it was still dark" Resurrection in terms of this 3 days and 3 nights. There simply isn't enough days and nights between Friday evening and Sunday "while it was still dark".


The phrase "First day of the week" is crystal clear in every English Bible. However, my guess is that you've never studied the underlying Greek of this phrase. Because it is far more obscure than the English counterpart. For example, the word "day" is missing. The word "week" (which had a word in Koine Greek to represent it), is missing, and is replaced by Sabbaths (in the plural). And also, the word "first" is not an accurate representation, as the Greek word used here is "one". "First" and "one" are not the same word, and do not mean the same thing, just as someone may say "this is one of the apples that fell from the tree", it is not the same as the phrase "this is the first of the apples that fell from the tree".

The literal translation that your English says is "first day of the week" is actually "One (day) of the Sabbaths". (the word "day" being a grammatical addition to satisfy the gender used here).

Christ said He would be in the 'heart of the earth' 3 days and nights as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. (Matt. 12:40)

The other Scriptures you presented made clear that Jesus would rise 3 days later. They said nothing of 'night'. (Matt. 26:61), (Mark 8:31), and (John 2:19)

Therein lies your problem. Not mine as a Christian. I have already addressed the 'night' in post #(143) and (144). And I have addressed what 'the heart of the earth' means. Please read or reread.

Your desire to change what the Bible says, is noted. I believe what the Bible says...not you.

Still waiting on some sort of explanation as to how a Deist can beleive in the Resurrection of Christ?

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

@rstrats

Continued from post #(143)

The basis for your argument is (Matt. 12:40) As with Jonah, so with Christ.

So, how was it with Jonah? Well, Jonah demanded that the sailors physically toss him into the sea. (Jonah 1:11-12) Jonah didn't jump and the sailors refused to deliver him to the raging sea. (Jonah 1:13). But as the storm grew worse, they agreed with Jonah's demand and cast him into the sea. (Jonah 1:14-14). And 'immediately' the sea ceased from raging. (1:15) And Jonah was swallowed by the whale.

Jonah's judgement of three days and nights began once he was cast into the sea, and swallowed by the whale. This defines for us what is meant for Jesus to be in the 'heart of the earth'. When was Jesus cast or delivered into the 'heart of the earth'?

(Matt. 20:18-19) "...the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death. And shall deliver him ....and the third day he shall rise again."

(Mark 10:33-34) "the Son of man shall be delivered unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death...and the third day he shall rise again."

(Luke 9:22) "...The Son of man must suffer...and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. "

(Luke 18:32-33) "For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles,....and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luke 24:7) "Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Jesus being in the 'heart of the earth' for 3 days and nights began when He was 'delivered'. Not when He was laid in the tomb.

And when was it that Jesus was 'delivered'? (1 Cor. 11:23) "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:"

There is your 'night'.

As to your statement in post #142 that you are "still curious", that is not true. You're not curious, you just can't answer my question. How do you account for Jonahs three days and nights in the belly of the whale?

Scriputre is clear. Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. You can't account for Jesus's 3 days and nights. But neither can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights.

We who are Christian believe the testimony of Scripture that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. You don't believe either. Imagine that.

Lees

This is the post Lees points us to to 'prove' the 3 days 3 nights period starts with the deliverance of Christ unto the scribes/elders etc.

Your use of red highlight along with the use of "..." to cut out scripture is impressive, but if I highly doubt anyone but an idiot would think that by doing so you have proven the 3 day 3 night count starts before the death and burial of Jesus.

But I understand, Lees, I really do. Those 3days 3nights period just cannot start from the Friday evening Tomb burial if Christ rises on Sunday while it's still dark. So a little red emphasis and parsing out scripture (" ... ") is necessary to get to what Jesus REALLY meant. I'm sure He will give you a pat on the back for correcting him, lol.

 

[Lees]

This is the post Lees points us to to 'prove' the 3 days 3 nights period starts with the deliverance of Christ unto the scribes/elders etc.

Your use of red highlight along with the use of "..." to cut out scripture is impressive, but if I highly doubt anyone but an idiot would think that by doing so you have proven the 3 day 3 night count starts before the death and burial of Jesus.

But I understand, Lees, I really do. Those 3days 3nights period just cannot start from the Friday evening Tomb burial if Christ rises on Sunday while it's still dark. So a little red emphasis and parsing out scripture (" ... ") is necessary to get to what Jesus REALLY meant. I'm sure He will give you a pat on the back for correcting him, lol.

Awww...you understand. That's so sweet. Just really touches my heart...not.

First of all, you don't understand anything. You're a Deist claiming to believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. A walking Oxymoron.

Second of all, how is a tomb the 'heart of the earth? It isn't.

Third of all, in your previous post, post #(167), you use (Matt. 26:61), (Mark 8:31), and (John 2:19) to define 'heart of the earth'. But, those verses say nothing of 3 nights, or any night. All that is said there, or implied in the rebuilding of the Temple, is that Jesus would rise after 3 days.

Interesting enough is the verse (Mark 8:31). For there the 'deliverance' of Christ over to His killers is included. "And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests,and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."

This agrees with (Jonah 1:12-15). And Jonah is the comparison one must use to define 'heart of the earth' as described in (Matt. 12:40). "...as Jonah was...so shall theSon of man be....".

As seen already, Jesus had made references to His resurrection by saying 'after 3 days', or 'and the 3rd day' He would rise. Why wouldn't Jesus say that in (Matt. 12:40)? He didn't mention His resurrection there at all. Why? Because more than His Resurrection is being addressed. His being under the judgement of earths authorities is the meaning of 'the heart of the earth'.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Second of all, how is a tomb the 'heart of the earth? It isn't.

If I were to approach a child with a picture bible, and show him/her A)Jonah tossed into the sea,B) then inside a whale, and then flip to the C)delivering of Christ to the scribes/pharisees, D)then inside a tomb...

and then asked: 2 parts of each story match the other story, can you match them for me?

The answer would be obvious, and he/she would match

A with C
B with D

But that is a child, without the "apologetics" that makes grown adults think themselves wise.


Did you know, that if you search this topic online, the same tired arguments are used? Now a child of formative years can count to 3, but wise men who use apologetics to uphold tradition all imagine that the peeps in Jesus's time had trouble with this saying that "part of a day = a whole day" and other such nonsense.

Third of all, in your previous post, post #(167), you use (Matt. 26:61), (Mark 8:31), and (John 2:19) to define 'heart of the earth'. But, those verses say nothing of 3 nights, or any night. All that is said there, or implied in the rebuilding of the Temple, is that Jesus would rise after 3 days.

I used those verses not to prove what "heart of the earth" meant, but to show time-frame. Being killed is the last thing mentioned. There is not a hint in the Gospels that the 3-day, 3-night count starts anywhere before the last thing mentioned.

Interesting enough is the verse (Mark 8:31). For there the 'deliverance' of Christ over to His killers is included. "And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests,and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."

This agrees with (Jonah 1:12-15). And Jonah is the comparison one must use to define 'heart of the earth' as described in (Matt. 12:40). "...as Jonah was...so shall theSon of man be....".

As seen already, Jesus had made references to His resurrection by saying 'after 3 days', or 'and the 3rd day' He would rise. Why wouldn't Jesus say that in (Matt. 12:40)? He didn't mention His resurrection there at all. Why? Because more than His Resurrection is being addressed. His being under the judgement of earths authorities is the meaning of 'the heart of the earth'.

Lees

This is just silly. Everyone who knows the story of Jonah knows that after the 3days and nights in the whale, it spits him out onto dry land. No one reading Jonah would imagine that the whale, the sea, or the men were metaphors or figures of speech. It is literally a story of being inside a large enclosure (the whale), as the tomb would have been a large enclosure inside the earth.

Yes, Lees, but I understand. You must complicate it and obfusticate it because the Tomb to Resurrection 3day, 3night time frame doesn't work. Just like the ridiculous notion that people had "different reckonings of counting to 3" back then that is so reaching as to be laughable, you must apply heavy metaphorical usage to the phrase in order for it to work. This, I'm sure, makes you think you are wise. Not quite as wise as a child though, the likes of which, through simple understanding of such things, Christ said we must become.

 

[Lees]

If I were to approach a child with a picture bible, and show him/her A)Jonah tossed into the sea,B) then inside a whale, and then flip to the C)delivering of Christ to the scribes/pharisees, D)then inside a tomb...

and then asked: 2 parts of each story match the other story, can you match them for me?

The answer would be obvious, and he/she would match

A with C
B with D

But that is a child, without the "apologetics" that makes grown adults think themselves wise.


Did you know, that if you search this topic online, the same tired arguments are used? Now a child of formative years can count to 3, but wise men who use apologetics to uphold tradition all imagine that the peeps in Jesus's time had trouble with this saying that "part of a day = a whole day" and other such nonsense.




I used those verses not to prove what "heart of the earth" meant, but to show time-frame. Being killed is the last thing mentioned. There is not a hint in the Gospels that the 3-day, 3-night count starts anywhere before the last thing mentioned.


This is just silly. Everyone who knows the story of Jonah knows that after the 3days and nights in the whale, it spits him out onto dry land. No one reading Jonah would imagine that the whale, the sea, or the men were metaphors or figures of speech. It is literally a story of being inside a large enclosure (the whale), as the tomb would have been a large enclosure inside the earth.

Yes, Lees, but I understand. You must complicate it and obfusticate it because the Tomb to Resurrection 3day, 3night time frame doesn't work. Just like the ridiculous notion that people had "different reckonings of counting to 3" back then that is so reaching as to be laughable, you must apply heavy metaphorical usage to the phrase in order for it to work. This, I'm sure, makes you think you are wise. Not quite as wise as a child though, the likes of which, through simple understanding of such things, Christ said we must become.

Sure. You can peddle your opinions to a child and have them agree with you. But your problems arise when you encounter a Christian who has some knowledge of the Bible.

Yes I know. I read of your similar tired arguments regularly.

No, you did use those verses to try and prove what the 'heart of the earth' was in post #(167). Here is what you said: "Regarding the phrase 'in the heart of the earth', it's relatively easy to determine what this means (as sit relates to time-frame) because of other Scriptures that indicate that time-frame."

You then give your verses. (Matt. 26:61), (Mark 8:31), (John 2:19) But, as I said, none of these indicate any nights. They speak to the Resurrection after 3 days.

And in (Matt. 12:40), where 3 days and 3 nights are specifically cited, Jesus says nothing of the resurrection. He is speaking of the judgement upon Him due to being turned over to the earth's authorities. He submitted to earth's authorities. Because 'as with Jonah...so with Christ', Jonah could not just jump overboard. Earths authorities must lay hands on him and toss him.

And, as I also said before, (Mark 8:31) agrees perfectly with this. "...the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."

The three days and nights began when Jesus was delivered unto the authorities. The night of His betrayal. (1 Cor. 11:23) "...That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:"

No, it's not silly. Jonah is a true and literal account of what really happened. It is not just a 'story'. You want to claim some sort of 'literalness' in interpreting Jonah. But you immediately use other language to define 'heart of the earth'. You identify it as the tomb. Jesus could have easlily said tomb, or buried, in (Matt. 12:40). But He didn't. Because more was involved than just His being buried or in the tomb.

Actually, no. As I said earlier, you don't understand. It's not really confusing at all. The only reference to 3 days and nights is the comparrison with Jonah. All other references speak only to 3 days. That coupled with the phrase 'heart of the earth', which also is only used concerning Jonah, means that Jonahs experience was all important to the define the 3 days and nights, and 'the heart of the earth'. And, as I said, the time of the Resurrection is not directly stated in (Matt. 12:40) as it is in (Mark 8:31)

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

@Lees

For the sake of analysis, I'm going to entertain the notion that the 3 day 3 night count starts "when Jesus was delivered to the authorities" and let's see if it holds up.

The arrest of Jesus is the night before preparation day, so that would be the day we call Thursday.

Thursday night - 1 night - Jesus is arrested
Friday day - 1 night, 1 day - Tried before Pilate and Herod, Crucified, placed in Tomb near even before
Friday night - 2 nights, 1 day - in tomb
Saturday day - 2 nights, 2 days - in tomb
Saturday night - 3 nights, 2 days - in tomb but rises before the next daylight period.

Remembering that according to John's Gospel, Mary came to the tomb while it was still dark and found it empty (John 20:1), there is your timeline, and it STILL falls short by 1 day period.

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples. And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

 

[Lees]

@Lees

For the sake of analysis, I'm going to entertain the notion that the 3 day 3 night count starts "when Jesus was delivered to the authorities" and let's see if it holds up.

The arrest of Jesus is the night before preparation day, so that would be the day we call Thursday.

Thursday night - 1 night - Jesus is arrested
Friday day - 1 night, 1 day - Tried before Pilate and Herod, Crucified, placed in Tomb near even before
Friday night - 2 nights, 1 day - in tomb
Saturday day - 2 nights, 2 days - in tomb
Saturday night - 3 nights, 2 days - in tomb but rises before the next daylight period.

Remembering that according to John's Gospel, Mary came to the tomb while it was still dark and found it empty (John 20:1), there is your timeline, and it STILL falls short by 1 day period.

Are you counting for the day being from evening to morning?

So? what does it being dark matter? It was the first day of the week. (Mark 16:1-2) (Mark 16:9)

Jesus rose the first day of the week.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples. And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

Examples of what?

Perhaps you could answer my questions in post #(166).

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Are you counting for the day being from evening to morning?

So? what does it being dark matter? It was the first day of the week. (Mark 16:1-2) (Mark 16:9)

Jesus rose the first day of the week.

Lees

I am fully aware that the Jewish period that constitutes a full day/night period starts with evening, or Sunset. However, this is irrelevant because we are counting the total number of day and night periods.

Your attempt to reconcile the 3 day 3 night count by placing the count at the start of Christ's arrest fails. It matters for a very important reason. Either:

1) Messiah's most important sign is not a sign at all because it doesn't meet the most basic of requirements in terms of time. Obviously this has several grave implications.

or

2) Messiah's most important sign says something much more important about our Calendar system. If the sign is true, simply true, without obfuscation, then something else, namely our Calendar system, is false. As I am aware that Mia ton Sabbaton is not a true rendering for "first day of the week", then I take this latter position.

By the way, ever wonder why water recedes and plants arise on the 3rd day of Genesis...the one that falls after 3 days and 3 nights?

 

[rstrats]

Examples of what?



Lees

From the OP - "I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief [of commonality] ; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?" That is the one and only issue of this topic.