Common Figure of Speech?

[Lees]

I never said that.

And I ask you again, account for "what" with regard to the 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah was in the belly of the fish? And anyways, what has that got to do with this topic?

Again, to what argument are you referring?

Yes you did. Here is your post #(99).

You're absolutely correct. Unfortunately I allowed myself to get drawn off topic by replying to your off topic comment in post #91. The only issue of this topic concerns the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

(Matt. 12:40) is relevant because you are basing your argument on it. "...as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." So, again I ask you how do you account for the three days and nights that Jonah was in the belly of the whale?

I am referring to your argument. Read above in your post #(99). Read below in your post #(1)

6. I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?

My argument is that we who are Christian are not saying that. Not saying what? "that belief, i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occured."

We as Christians say, just like (Matt. 12:40) says, that Jesus, like Jonah in the belly of the whale, was three days and nights in the heart of the earth.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Lees,

In the immortal words of Struther Martin: "What we have here is a failure to communicate", so let's try this a different way:

Do you believe the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, do you also believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb" - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, do you explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech, colloquial language - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, what examples are you using to say that He was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language - i.e., actual examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur?

BTW, I'm still curious, so I ask you again; account for "what" with regard to the 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah was in the belly of the fish?

 

[Lees]

Lees,

In the immortal words of Struther Martin: "What we have here is a failure to communicate", so let's try this a different way:

Do you believe the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, do you also believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb" - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, do you explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech, colloquial language - yes or no? If no, then this topic does not apply to you. If yes, what examples are you using to say that He was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language - i.e., actual examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur?

BTW, I'm still curious, so I ask you again; account for "what" with regard to the 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah was in the belly of the fish?

'We'? I'm not having any problem communicating. My sympathies to you and Struther Martin.

I believe the Scripture that you base your argument on. Your post #(1) and (99). That is (Matt. 12:40) Therefore I believe the testimony of that which says, 3 days and 3 nights. As with Jonah, so with Christ. 3 days and 3 nights.

I believe Jesus was crucified on the 6th day. There is no lack of a third night which is why I have said, we as Christians do not believe that. You believe that. Not us. We believe the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. I believe the 'heart of the earth' involves the time when Christ was in the tomb'. But there is more to it.

I believe Jesus was using literal language when speaking in (Matt. 12:40). Not 'figure of speech'. Not 'colloquial'

Here is where the rub comes. You keep saying, if I believe a certain way, then this topic is for me. Or if I don't believe a certain way, then this topic is not for me. In other words, you have set the boundaries for this argument which are beneficial to you. And you have every confidence that your argument is fool proof, which is why you like to invite others at various times to partake in it. Again, that is handy. One can enter into this discussion only if you first agree with your argument. But this topic is for me because you are falsifying boundaries and then trying to maintain those boundaries by saying 'it is not for me'.

The basis for your argument is (Matt. 12:40). As with Jonah, so with Christ. Can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights? No, you can't. But you don't believe it anyway. Just like you don't believe in Christ's 3 days and nights.

This post is getting too long. I will continue in the next post a little later.

Lees

 

[Lees]

@rstrats

Continued from post #(143)

The basis for your argument is (Matt. 12:40) As with Jonah, so with Christ.

So, how was it with Jonah? Well, Jonah demanded that the sailors physically toss him into the sea. (Jonah 1:11-12) Jonah didn't jump and the sailors refused to deliver him to the raging sea. (Jonah 1:13). But as the storm grew worse, they agreed with Jonah's demand and cast him into the sea. (Jonah 1:14-14). And 'immediately' the sea ceased from raging. (1:15) And Jonah was swallowed by the whale.

Jonah's judgement of three days and nights began once he was cast into the sea, and swallowed by the whale. This defines for us what is meant for Jesus to be in the 'heart of the earth'. When was Jesus cast or delivered into the 'heart of the earth'?

(Matt. 20:18-19) "...the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death. And shall deliver him ....and the third day he shall rise again."

(Mark 10:33-34) "the Son of man shall be delivered unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death...and the third day he shall rise again."

(Luke 9:22) "...The Son of man must suffer...and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. "

(Luke 18:32-33) "For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles,....and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luke 24:7) "Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Jesus being in the 'heart of the earth' for 3 days and nights began when He was 'delivered'. Not when He was laid in the tomb.

And when was it that Jesus was 'delivered'? (1 Cor. 11:23) "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:"

There is your 'night'.

As to your statement in post #142 that you are "still curious", that is not true. You're not curious, you just can't answer my question. How do you account for Jonahs three days and nights in the belly of the whale?

Scriputre is clear. Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. You can't account for Jesus's 3 days and nights. But neither can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights.

We who are Christian believe the testimony of Scripture that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. You don't believe either. Imagine that.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

So, how was it with Jonah?

What has that got to do with this topic, unless you're saying that it is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Lees]

What has that got to do with this topic, unless you're saying that it is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. Is that what you're saying?

I said what I was saying in posts #(143) and (144). And it has everything to do with the topic, as I explained.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

I said what I was saying in posts #(143) and (144). And it has everything to do with the topic, as I explained.

Lees

So then you're not saying that the Jonah account is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. Therefore, the account is irrelevant to this topic.

You say in post #144 that "Jesus being in the 'heart of the earth' for 3 days and nights began when He was 'delivered'. Not when He was laid in the tomb."

Ane that is an issue for a different topic. This one is only concerned with those who think the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

 

[Lees]

So then you're not saying that the Jonah account is an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred. Therefore, the account is irrelevant to this topic.

You say in post #144 that "Jesus being in the 'heart of the earth' for 3 days and nights began when He was 'delivered'. Not when He was laid in the tomb."

Ane that is an issue for a different topic. This one is only concerned with those who think the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

More smoke.

When you say that is an issue for a different topic, that is you forcing people to accept your argument, to agree with you, before they can enter any discussion.

It is not a different topic because you set the basis for your position in (Matt. 12:40). Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't mean it is the basis of a different topic.

Try again.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Not a whole lot of point arguing with Lees @rstrats on the subject at this point. The apologetics he reads/makes up has convinced him that focusing on "delivered" somehow accounts for part of the 3 day 3 night count. This doesn't even match up with the story of Jonah...as Jonah is 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, not 3 days and 3 nights from the point where the men seize him and hurl him into the sea.

 

[rstrats]

When you say that is an issue for a different topic, that is you forcing people to accept your argument,

Once again, to what argument are you referring?

to agree with you,

To agree with me about what?

before they can enter any discussion.

The only discussion which would be relevant to this topic would be whether or not any examples given are actually examples.

you don't know what you're talking about

I know exactly what I'm "talking about". Let me repeat:

The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?

 

[rstrats]

Not a whole lot of point arguing with Lees @rstrats on the subject at this point.

That does seem to be the case. He just doesn't understand yet the issue of this topic.

 

[Lees]

Not a whole lot of point arguing with Lees @rstrats on the subject at this point. The apologetics he reads/makes up has convinced him that focusing on "delivered" somehow accounts for part of the 3 day 3 night count. This doesn't even match up with the story of Jonah...as Jonah is 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, not 3 days and 3 nights from the point where the men seize him and hurl him into the sea.

The Bible I read and believe has convinced me.

Jonah's being delivered was done at the same time the whale swallowed him. And yes, Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale. Just like (Matt. 12:40) says. And Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. Just like it also says. The 'heart of the earth' defned as the earth's authorities, through betrayal.

You say Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale. Account for those three days and nights.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Once again, to what argument are you referring?

To agree with me about what?

The only discussion which would be relevant to this topic would be whether or not any examples given are actually examples.

I know exactly what I'm "talking about". Let me repeat:

The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?

See again post #(143) and (144).

Again, that is your argument. Again,Christians do not believe that no part of a day or night didn't occur. We believe that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. Just like Jesus said in (Matt. 12:40)

The 'heart of the earth' involves the tomb, but it involves more as I have explained.

Can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights? No. Do you believe it? No. And it has every thing to do with it. "as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly" (Matt. 12:40).

Jonah could not just jump overboard. He had to be delivered by earthly authorities. (Jonah 1:11-17) Just as Jesus was delivered the night of his betrayal. (1 Cor. 11:23)

Lees

 

[rstrats]

See again post #(143) and (144).

Again, that is your argument.

Are you saying that my "argument" is that if someone believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that "in the heart of the earth" refers to the Messiah's time in the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night - which would be the case with that time line - by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial/idiomatic language of the period, then that someone would have to know of examples to legitimately support their assertion of commonality? If so, then yes, that is my argument.

Again, Christians do not believe that no part of a day or night didn't occur. We believe that Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. Just like Jesus said in (Matt. 12:40)

They have to if they believe in a 1st day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection, and also believe that "in the heart of earth" is referring to the time in the tomb. There is just is no way to account for a 3rd night time in the tomb.

The 'heart of the earth' involves the tomb, but it involves more as I have explained.

And that is why this topic does not apply to you. It is directed solely to those who think that "in the heart of the earth" is exclusively referring to the tomb

Can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights?

And even once again; account for "WHAT " with regard to Jonah's time in the fish? Why won't you answer that?

Jonah could not just jump overboard. He had to be delivered by earthly authorities. (Jonah 1:11-17) Just as Jesus was delivered the night of his betrayal. (1 Cor. 11:23)

And that is why this topic does not apply to you - you're starting the count before the time in the tomb.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

The Bible I read and believe has convinced me.

Jonah's being delivered was done at the same time the whale swallowed him.

Prove it, from the book of Jonah. Jonah is thrown into the sea, and the sea calms. Next, we read about God having prepared a whale/giant fish to swallow Jonah. The men didn't thrown Jonah into the gaping maw of the whale, but into the sea. He could have been out there for any part of a day or night or even a full day for all we know. It doesn't say the whale swallowed him right away.

 

[Lees]

Are you saying that my "argument" is that if someone believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that "in the heart of the earth" refers to the Messiah's time in the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night - which would be the case with that time line - by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial/idiomatic language of the period, then that someone would have to know of examples to legitimately support their assertion of commonality? If so, then yes, that is my argument.

They have to if they believe in a 1st day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection, and also believe that "in the heart of earth" is referring to the time in the tomb. There is just is no way to account for a 3rd night time in the tomb.


And that is why this topic does not apply to you. It is directed solely to those who think that "in the heart of the earth" is exclusively referring to the tomb

And even once again; account for "WHAT " with regard to Jonah's time in the fish? Why won't you answer that?

And that is why this topic does not apply to you - you're starting the count before the time in the tomb.

I already stated your argument. You have stated your argument. You repeated it in the last two lines in your post #(150).

Jesus wasn't crucified on the first day of the week. As I said, that is what you want Christians to believe. We don't. We believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. I have explained 'the heart of the earth'. Again, see posts#(143) and (144).

This topic does apply to me. Why? To correct your false boundaries in determining the 3 days and nights. Again, it is handy that one can't enter into your discussion unless one agree to your premises and conclusions. What a joke.

I already told you. Can you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale? Simple question.

Jesus never said 3 days and nights in the tomb. This topic applies to me. Why? To correct your false boundaries in determining the 3 days and nights.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Prove it, from the book of Jonah. Jonah is thrown into the sea, and the sea calms. Next, we read about God having prepared a whale/giant fish to swallow Jonah. The men didn't thrown Jonah into the gaping maw of the whale, but into the sea. He could have been out there for any part of a day or night or even a full day for all we know. It doesn't say the whale swallowed him right away.

It doesn't matter if Jonah was first in the ocean for a part of a day or night. The whale was there both as a judgement and a rescue. The whale would have had to be there immediately, being that day or night.

That it would have been immediate, that day or night, is indicated in (Jonah 1:15) "So they took up Jonah and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from raging." That the sea ceased from raging shows that God was pleased with the Jonah being cast into the sea, and thus had the whale prepared to swallow him

Point being, Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale. Now, you account for Jonah's 3 days and nights. I have no problem proving it. (Matt. 12:40) is clear. (Jonah 1:17) is clear. Let me see you account for it.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

I already stated your argument. You have stated your argument. You repeated it in the last two lines in your post #(150).

Then you have to know that this topic does not apply to you since you don't think that the "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb. This topic is directed to anyone who does think that it is.

Jesus wasn't crucified on the first day of the week.

Where have I said that He was?

As I said, that is what you want Christians to believe. We don't.

Where have I said that I want anyone to believe anything, much less that the Messiah was crucified on the 1st day of the week?

I have explained 'the heart of the earth'.

But this topic is not asking for an explanation with regard to the meaning of "the heart of earth". If you want to opine about that please start a new topic.

This topic does apply to me. Why?

Because you don't believe the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. Nor do you apparently have any examples to show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

 

[Lees]

Then you have to know that this topic does not apply to you since you don't think that the "heart of the earth" is referring exclusively to the tomb. This topic is directed to anyone who does think that it is.

Where have I said that He was?


Where have I said that I want anyone to believe anything, much less that the Messiah was crucified on the 1st day of the week?

But this topic is not asking for an explanation with regard to the meaning of "the heart of earth". If you want to opine about that please start a new topic.

Because you don't believe the "heart of the earth" refers exclusively to the tomb. Nor do you apparently have any examples to show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

It does apply to me because it is based on (Matt. 12:40), Jesus being in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights.

All Chrisitians believe (Matt. 12:40). None believe your argument, as stated in the opening post, and in the last two lines in your post #(150). Even if there are some or many who don't agree with me, they still believe in the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, just like Jesus said. They believe every day and every night is accounted for. Even if they don't have an explaniation, they have Jesus own words.

Well, you apparently don't know what the 'heart of the earth' is referring to and so you need an explanation. Thus it changes your boundaries. It didn't say Jesus is going to be in the tomb 3 days and nights. And, by the way, how is a tomb considered the 'heart of the earth'? You based your argument on (Matt. 12:40). You cant do that and then say 'the heart of the earth' is not an issue here.

I don't need an example to show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be invovled with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. Christians don't believe that because Jesus said otherwise. Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights. Just like with Jonah....3 days and 3 nights. (Jonah 1:17)

It's you that believe that there were not 3 days and nights. Not us.

Do you believe Jonah was in the whales belly 3 days and nights? No. Can you account for those three days and nights. No.

Do you believe Jesus was 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth. No. And you can't account for that either.

If you think your little argument satisfies you in your unbelief, fine. But your argument is based upon unbelief. The Christian believes what Jesus said.

Lees

 

[rstrats]

Deleted.