Since there’s evidence that 1 Maccabees was probably written in Hebrew originally…

[NathanH83]

Then do you think there’s a possibility that it might have been included in the Hebrew Bible at one point in time before being taken out?

(I know 2 Maccabees was probably written in Greek originally, but evidence shows 1 Maccabees was probably written in Hebrew before being later translated into Greek)

 

[Andrew]

Then do you think there’s a possibility that it might have been included in the Hebrew Bible at one point in time before being taken out?

(I know 2 Maccabees was probably written in Greek originally, but evidence shows 1 Maccabees was probably written in Hebrew before being later translated into Greek)

It was in Pauls bible so yeah

 

[NathanH83]

It was in Pauls bible so yeah

Yes, Paul had Maccabees in his Bible. Paul references Maccabees in Hebrews 11:35. The New Testament proves that Maccabees was in the disciples’ Bibles.

 

[Lanman87]

Yes, Paul had Maccabees in his Bible. Paul references Maccabees in Hebrews 11:35. The New Testament proves that Maccabees was in the disciples’ Bibles.

Jude references Enoch in his short letter. Does that mean Enoch was in Jude's Bible?

We know that Enoch was widely read in the century before. Many of copies of Enoch were found in the dead sea scrolls.

 

[NathanH83]

Jude references Enoch in his short letter. Does that mean Enoch was in Jude's Bible?

We know that Enoch was widely read in the century before. Many of copies of Enoch were found in the dead sea scrolls.

They say the Apocrypha is never quoted word-for-word, verbatim anywhere in the New Testament with the identifying phrase like “Thus saith the Lord” or “as scripture says” or “As Jeremiah prophesied” or “as the prophet Isaiah said” or “as the prophet Daniel said.”

And they say that this is the proof that the Apocrypha doesn’t belong in the Bible.

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

 

[Origen]

A side by side comparison of Jude and Enoch proves the quote is NOT word for word. Such a claim is demonstrably false.

 

[Lanman87]

They say the Apocrypha is never quoted word-for-word, verbatim anywhere in the New Testament with the identifying phrase like “Thus saith the Lord” or “as scripture says” or “As Jeremiah prophesied” or “as the prophet Isaiah said” or “as the prophet Daniel said.”

And they say that this is the proof that the Apocrypha doesn’t belong in the Bible.

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

So do you think Enoch belongs in the Biblical canon?

 

[NathanH83]

A side by side comparison of Jude and Enoch proves the quote is NOT word for word. Such a claim is demonstrably false.

View attachment 1835

That’s the way it is with many Old Testament quotes. So what?

 

[NathanH83]

So do you think Enoch belongs in the Biblical canon?

Maybe, maybe not.
My original question was about Maccabees.

 

[Origen]

That’s the way it is with many Old Testament quotes. So what?

It means the following claim is utterly false.

Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

 

[NathanH83]

It means the following claim is utterly false.

No, it is not utterly false what I said.

There are dozens and dozens of times the New Testament quotes the Old Testament word-for-word, and yet doesn’t totally match up exactly. Here’s just one example:

In Acts, Peter said this:

“For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ “
-Acts 3:22-23

Peter is clearly quoting what Moses said in Deuteronomy word-for-word. But look up the quote itself and notice the differences:

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear…”
“And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.’ ”
-Deuteronomy 18:15,17-19

Notice how Peter says that those who will not listen“shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

But the actual quote in Deuteronomy says:
“whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

To say “be utterly destroyed” is a whole lot different than “require it of him.”

But does that mean that Peter isn’t quoting Moses word-for-word? No, he’s still quoting Moses word-for-word.

And the Greek Septuagint doesn’t word it much closer to Peter, for it says:

“And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him.
-Deuteronomy 18:19 (LXX)

“Take vengeance” is still different than “utterly destroyed”

This is just one example of dozens and dozens of Old Testament quotes throughout the New Testament.

But I’m guessing that you already knew that, and prefer to stick to your double standard, which is dishonest of you.

 

[Andrew]

Origen mentioned this name "Sarbeth Sabanaiel" when discussing Hebrew books...
Hmmmm, I wonder what Sarbeth Sabanaiel means... anyone want to google it for me?

 

[Origen]

No, it is not utterly false what I said.

Neither Peter nor Jude claimed to be quoting "word for word." That was your claim nor theirs.

You claimed that Jude "quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word." Those were your EXACT words, word for word. That claim is utterly false.

Here is your quote again. You even used the word "verbatim" and cite Jude's quote as an example of a "word-for-word, verbatim" quote.

They say the Apocrypha is never quoted word-for-word, verbatim anywhere in the New Testament with the identifying phrase like “Thus saith the Lord” or “as scripture says” or “As Jeremiah prophesied” or “as the prophet Isaiah said” or “as the prophet Daniel said.”

And they say that this is the proof that the Apocrypha doesn’t belong in the Bible.

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

As anyone can see Jude DOES NOT quote 1 Enoch word for word as you falsely stated.

 

[Andrew]

Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict every person of all their thoroughly ungodly deeds that they have committed, and of all the harsh words that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of his holy ones to execute judgement upon all, And to destroy the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


Potato Potato

 

[NathanH83]

Neither Peter nor Jude claimed to be quoting "word for word." That was your claim nor theirs.

You claimed that Jude "quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word." Those were your EXACT words, word for word. That claim is utterly false.

Here is your quote again. You even used the word "verbatim" and cite Jude's quote as an example of a "word-for-word, verbatim" quote.


As anyone can see Jude DOES NOT quote 1 Enoch word for word as you falsely stated.
View attachment 1836

You’re completely missing the point.

They say that the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, but never quotes the Apocrypha.

Why does Peter’s quote of Deuteronomy provide evidence that he accepts Deuteronomy as scripture, but Jude’s quote of Enoch doesn’t provide evidence he accepts Enoch as scripture?

What? Because it doesn’t match up exactly? Neither does Peter’s. Neither do a lot of Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament.

What I said is true. Whatever Peter is quoting, whatever translation HE was using, it was a word-for-word quote. Our translations of Deuteronomy are different than Peter’s for some reason. But Peter was still quoting HIS translation word-for-word.

Same with Enoch. Jude was quoting HIS copy of Enoch word-for-word. Our copies of Enoch today are very slightly different (although not nearly as different as Peter’s quote of Deuteronomy). We already know there are a few minor differences between the Greek and Ethiopian version of Enoch.

So, it’s still true that Peter and Jude were quoting word for word from their copies. Our copies today are just slightly different for whatever reason.

Your point is completely a moot point when it comes to the topic at hand. They say the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, but not the Apocrypha. Not true. Enoch quotes Jude. You say, “Oh, but it’s slightly different!” Yea, MOST quotes in the NT of the OT are slightly different. But it’s still SIMILAR ENOUGH to know what they’re quoting. They’re quoting THEIR VERSION word-for-word.

If you want to be contentious about this, then you have to deny most of the New Testament quotations of the Old Testament. You’re ignoring that point, which is dishonest, and a double standard.

 

[NathanH83]

Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict every person of all their thoroughly ungodly deeds that they have committed, and of all the harsh words that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of his holy ones to execute judgement upon all, And to destroy the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


Potato Potato

“And behold! He cometh with ten thou-
sands of His holy ones to execute judge-
ment upon all, And to destroy all the
ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the
works of their ungodliness which they
have ungodly committed, And of all the
hard things which ungodly sinners have
spoken against Him."
-Enoch 1:9

“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’
-Jude 1:14-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Jude 14-15 - New King James Version

Origen is making a moot point. It’s obviously similar enough for us to recognize what is being quoted. Clearly Jude was quoting HIS VERSION word-for-word. The book of Jude has been passed down through the ages, translated multiple times. And the book of Enoch has been passed down though the ages, and translated multiple times. But it’s clear to any reader that Jude was quoting HIS copy word-for-word.

In fact, Jude’s quotation of Enoch matches up with the book of Enoch A WHOLE LOT BETTER than most NT quotations of the Masoretic OT. Origen’s point is a complete, nonsensical, moot point.

 

[Origen]

You’re completely missing the point.

I know exactly what my point is. The point is you made a claim.

This is the claim you made.

And yet that’s exactly what’s happens with Enoch. Jude says “As Enoch prophesied” and then quotes the book of Enoch word-for-word.

That claim is demonstrably and utterly false. Now you want to back peddle on your initial claim for very obvious reasons.

 

[NathanH83]

I know exactly what my point is. The point is you made a claim.

This is the claim you made.

That claim is demonstrably and utterly false. Now you want to back peddle on your initial claim for very obvious reasons.

View attachment 1837

Moot point. Jude is quoting HIS copy word for word.
Next!

 

[Lanman87]

Why does Peter’s quote of Deuteronomy provide evidence that he accepts Deuteronomy as scripture, but Jude’s quote of Enoch doesn’t provide evidence he accepts Enoch as scripture?

Peter quoting Deuteronomy is one reason we can say Peter thought Deuteronomy is Scripture. But taken alone it doesn't necessarily mean he believes it is Scripture. Another reason we can say the Peter is quoting "Scripture" is that we know he was a Palestinian Jew and we know, historically, that all Jews believed that Deuteronomy is scripture.

We also know Deuteronomy is Scripture because Jesus quoted Deuteronomy often.

So how do we know Deuteronomy is Scripture.

Jesus Quoted it as "It is Written"
Peter Quoted it
We have historical confirmation that it was accepted by the Jews as Scripture
It was universally accepted by Christians as Scripture

Even the Old Testament books that aren't quoted in the New Testament we know that:
Historically, they were accepted by the Jews as Scripture
A consensus developed in the Christian church (except for the DC books) that they are Scripture

With Enoch we know that
Jude quotes it
It was widely read by the Jews

What we don't have any proof of is that Jude or the Jews considered is Scripture and it certainly was never universally accepted by Christians as Scripture. It could be that the people he was talking about in his letter accepted Enoch as scripture and Jude was using their own scripture against them to show they have rejected God.

It could be (and probably is) Jude make a cultural/historical reference instead of a scriptural reference.

Just because something is quote or alluded to by the New Testament writers does not make it Scripture.

The Jews had stories and legends and historical writings and books just like we do today. And just like contemporary writers use those things to make a point or give context to writing/speech/sermon the writers of the New Testament, even Jesus himself, did the same thing.

If a respected preacher quotes "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in his sermon and uses it to make a point about Christian ethics or Christian faith that doesn't mean the preacher considers it Scripture. Even though it is a great, even inspired, Christian allegory.

 

[NathanH83]

I know exactly what my point is. The point is you made a claim.

This is the claim you made.

That claim is demonstrably and utterly false. Now you want to back peddle on your initial claim for very obvious reasons.

View attachment 1837

You love your double standard, don’t you?