A P O C R Y P H A : Included in every Holy Bible from the 4th century AD to the 19th Century AD

Albion

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They were in every Chrisitian Bibles from the 4th Century AD to the 19th Century AD.
We've covered this many times already.

They were included with the Bible books, although they were not accepted as Holy Scripture.

You, however, like to say instead that they were "in every Christian Bible" because that imprecise wording suggests the falsehood that the Church had decided these writings were divine revelation in the same way as the Church teaches that the Old Testament and the New Testament are.
 

Albion

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They were in every Chrisitian Bibles from the 4th Century AD to the 19th Century AD.
You already said that and you were wrong then, too.
 

NathanH83

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That's correct.

By the Church. It's the Christian churches which made the determination. Individual people can and have their own ideas about what books belong in the Bible, what doctrines they want to believe, who Christ actually was, whether they care to attend church worship services, and much much more...and all of that is just personal opinion having nothing to do with this discussion. Neither do the opinions of a handful of rebel writers or clergy scattered over hundreds of years of time have any weight when it comes to the official doctrine of the church of Christ.


You, apparently, since you promote the false claim that the Apocrypha was part of the Old Testament in every published Bible until the 19th century.

However, it is meaningless to say that someone rejected as Bible books certain writings that never were part of the Bible in the first place!


The correct answer is NO!!!

And this essentially ends me correcting the baseless theories of the people here who have no evidence to present but just keep repeating the same disinformation after having been set straight concerning the historic record.

Which churches?

The churches of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage accepted the Apocryphal books as divine canonical scripture as early as the 300’s.

Even today, the modern churches of the RCC and EOC accept the Apocryphal books. The Russian orthodox accept the Apocryphal books. Many Anabaptists still accept the Apocryphal books. Ethiopian Orthodox and Coptic churches accept the Apocryphal books.

So what do you mean “THE church” rejects them?
What “THE” church are you talking about? The First Baptist church in YOUR town? The majority of protestant churches in America?

WHO are you taking about SPECIFICALLY???

The author of Hebrews clearly said that the events in 2 Maccabees are a part of Biblical history. So, you’re wrong.
 

Andrew

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You already said that and you were wrong then, too.
Took me over an hour to compile this list for you, feel free to go over them and fact check them, and then tell me again how the "Apocrypha" books were never accepted into the Bibles.

Note: "Apocrypha" and Deuterocanon are synonymous, (*Deuterocanon = Catholic translater - exception to Jerome)

Jerome's Latin Vulgate 382 [Latin]
"Apocrypha" per Jerome, although others before had simply referred to them as Scripture or Ecclesiasticals, the Church would officially declare them *Deuterocanon

1000 years pass...

Wycliffe's Bible 1382 [Middle English]
*Deuterocanon

The Luther Bible 1522 [German]
"Apocrypha"

Coverdale Bible 1535 [Modern English]
"Apocrypha"

The Mathew Bible 1537 [Modern English]
"Apocrypha"

The Great Bible 1539 [English]
"Apocrypha"

Geneva Bible 1560 [English]
"Apocrypha"

The Brest Bible 1563 [Polish]
"Apocrypha"

Bishop's Bible 1568 [English]
"Apocrypha"

Reina Valera Bible 1569 [Spanish]
*Deuterocanon

The Douay-Rheims Bible 1609 [English]
*Deuterocanon

King James Version 1611 [English]
"Apocrypha"

The Bible of Kralice 1613 [Czech]
"Apocrypha"

The Illuminated Bible 1846 [English]
"Apocrypha"

Revised King James Version 1885 [English]
-The "Apocrypha" was officially removed by a society of wealthy businessmen (The American Bible Society) to make even more money by using less resources (paper, ink) and selling them at the same price to Protestants (who protested the removal of the "Apocrypha") while overcharging Catholic Bishops to print the Deuterocanon/"Apocrypha"
 
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Lanman87

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he "Apocrypha" was officially removed by a society of wealthy businessmen (The American Bible Society) to make even more money by using less resources (paper, ink) and selling them at the same price to Protestants (who protested the removal of the "Apocrypha") while overcharging Catholic Bishops to print the Deuterocanon/"Apocrypha"
If they aren't part of the God Breathed Scripture then what difference does it make? They are interesting books for sure. Faith building books even, however if they aren't innerrant God breathed scripture then maybe they shouldn't be in the same binding as the actual scripture. People could get confused and think they are equal to the other books.
 

Andrew

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If they aren't part of the God Breathed Scripture then what difference does it make? They are interesting books for sure. Faith building books even, however if they aren't innerrant God breathed scripture then maybe they shouldn't be in the same binding as the actual scripture. People could get confused and think they are equal to the other books.
They were Holy scripture according to early Christian writings, the OT scripture they recieved was the Greek translations, the same translations that Jesus quotes Isaiah from in the Synagogue.

It's very hard for some to accept that the first churches, made up of Jews and Gentiles, had no objection to these books, they quoted from them for than the rest of the old testament. The misunderstanding probably has to do with Christianity today being largely gentile, but those who set up the churches were Jewish. The unbelieving Jews rejected them after the fact, but the believing Jews never once objected to the usage of these books as God breathed.

Read Wisdom chapter 2.

You tell me that it wasn't God breathed.
 

MoreCoffee

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Did the main, legitimate church councils accept the Apocryphal books? And the answer is YES!!!
That is true insofar as the Oecumenical councils dealt with the canon of scripture. A number of local councils dealt with the canon of scripture as it was received in their jurisdiction.

Here is a recording of an interesting 21 minutes
 

Albion

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Which churches?

The churches of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage accepted the Apocryphal books as divine canonical scripture as early as the 300’s.

That isn't correct. Until the two church councils that canonized scripture in the late 300s, all sorts of combinations were in use among the different churches of the Christian world. There had never been a general, universal decision made--not until the late 300s at which time the Apocrypha was included but only provisionally.

These books were carried in editions of the Bible but their status as Holy Scripture had not been decided, in part because neither the Jewish authorities nor anything official from the Christian side had reached agreement on the nature of the Apocrypha. That is why both the Protestants and the Roman Catholics were able to decide against all or some of these books in the 16th century.
Even today, the modern churches of the RCC and EOC accept the Apocryphal books.

Some of them, but if your contention were correct about the Apocrypha, all of them would be accepted as Holy Scripture...and they're not..
 

NathanH83

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That isn't correct. Until the two church councils that canonized scripture in the late 300s, all sorts of combinations were in use among the different churches of the Christian world. There had never been a general, universal decision made--not until the late 300s at which time the Apocrypha was included but only provisionally.

These books were carried in editions of the Bible but their status as Holy Scripture had not been decided, in part because neither the Jewish authorities nor anything official from the Christian side had reached agreement on the nature of the Apocrypha. That is why both the Protestants and the Roman Catholics were able to decide against all or some of these books in the 16th century.


Some of them, but if your contention were correct about the Apocrypha, all of them would be accepted as Holy Scripture...and they're not..

Clement lived the same time as Paul. He references and quotes Judith and Wisdom of Solomon in his letter of 1 Clement. These books were accepted as scripture at the very start of Christianity. They weren’t “added in” in the 300’s. They were there ever since the beginning of the Christian Church. So your claim that “The Church” rejected them is bologna.
 

Albion

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Clement lived the same time as Paul. He references and quotes Judith and Wisdom of Solomon in his letter of 1 Clement. These books were accepted as scripture at the very start of Christianity.
No. I've explained that mistake in my previous post. Read it again.
 

Andrew

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No. I've explained that mistake in my previous post. Read it again.
A few of the church fathers confirm that the Clement letters were by written by Pauls appointed Bishop
 

Lanman87

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They were Holy scripture according to early Christian writings,
Some of the early Christian writings, not all.

Here are some Early Christian Writings that say one or more of the Books in Question are not in the Canon of Scripture


There were several different list of Old Testament Books, many of the more famous ones are the Hebrew/Protestant books plus or minus 1 or 2 books.

Melito of Sardis and Origen have their list of Old Testament Books recorded by Eusebius. Neither contain the Trent Canon of the Old Testament. Melito's Old Testament Canon is the Hebrew Canon minus Esther. Origen plainly says that Macabees is "outside the canon".

Melito and Origen are both ante-nicean Fathers.

Cyril of Jerusalem doesn't include the Deuterocannon in his list of Old Testament Books.

Hilary of Poitiers uses the Hebrew Canon then adds To this some add Tobit and Judith to make twenty-four books,

The Great Athanasius (who I've even heard of a Southern Baptist for his role in defending the Trinity) in his Festal Letter includes the Hebrew Canon (minus Esther) then he adds

But for the sake of greater exactness I add this also, writing under obligation, as it were. There are other books besides these, indeed not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being merely read;

Amphilocius of Iconium gives the Hebrew Canon and says "some include Esther". He does not include the Deuterocannon in his list.

Epiphanius gives the Hebrew Canon and throws this little tidbit in :And they have two more books of disputed canonicity, the Wisdom of Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon, apart from certain other apocrypha."

Rufinius like his friend Jerome says But it should also be known that there are other books which are called not "canonical" but "ecclesiastical" by the ancients: that is, the Wisdom attributed to Solomon, and another Wisdom attributed to the son of Sirach, which the Latins called by the title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book but its character. To the same class belong the book of Tobit and the book of Judith, and the books of Maccabees.

Most of the list I can find that actually give the disputed books in their "Old Testament canon" come after Augustine called them scripture.

And I can't find any list prior to the 5th Century that call these books "Scripture" but I can find several that say they are not.

Which brings us to the most important reason Protestant do not consider them part of the Canon. Because it isn't clear that they are part of the canon. With all the other books in the Protestant Bible there is clear consensus as to their inclusion. Not only among Protestants but all Christians. But there has never been a clear consensus on the books we have been discussing. Even up until Trent there were Catholic Bishops who argued the position of Athanasius. The very fact that there is disagreement is enough of a reason to reject them as part of the Canon.

"They are not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness:"




 

Andrew

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was going to copy and paste them individually but this page has them perfectly listed, whoever this guy was spent a lot of time qouting many early ante-nicene fathers who refer to them as divine, words of the prophets, it is written in scripture etc.. (concerning the quotes from the book one mentions)


But I will post what Rufinus says in defense of these books against Jeromes omission of the books found in the Septuagint that were thrown out by the post-Christianity Hebrew "canon" of Rabbanic Judaism.

The term scriptural "Canon" was first used by anti-Christian Jews and brought into the Church by Jerome.

I will do this at a later time.

The common most used books of the churches became the deuterocanon.

That is, the majority rule, athough different churches had diferent lists..
 

MoreCoffee

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That is, the majority rule, although different churches had different lists..
And no church had a 66 book bible, not until well after the Protestant revolt.
 

Lanman87

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was going to copy and paste them individually but this page has them perfectly listed, whoever this guy was spent a lot of time qouting many early ante-nicene fathers who refer to them as divine, words of the prophets, it is written in scripture etc.. (concerning the quotes from the book one mentions)


But I will post what Rufinus says in defense of these books against Jeromes omission of the books found in the Septuagint that were thrown out by the post-Christianity Hebrew "canon" of Rabbanic Judaism.

The term scriptural "Canon" was first used by anti-Christian Jews and brought into the Church by Jerome.

I will do this at a later time.

The common most used books of the churches became the deuterocanon.

That is, the majority rule, athough different churches had diferent lists..
Interesting that list List Anthanasius quotes when Anthanasius himself says they aren't part of the canon in the Festal Letter.
 

Andrew

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Rufinus letter to Jerome.

There has been from the first in the churches of God, and especially in that of Jerusalem, a plentiful supply of men who being born Jews have become Christians; and their perfect acquaintance with both languages and their sufficient knowledge of the law is shewn by their administration of the pontifical office.

In all this abundance of learned men, has there been one who has dared to make havoc of the divine record handed down to the Churches by the Apostles and the deposit of the Holy Spirit?

For what can we call it but havoc, when some parts of it are transformed, and this is called the correction of an error? For instance, the whole of the history of Susanna, which gave a lesson of chastity to the churches of God, has by him been cut out, thrown aside and dismissed. The hymn of the three children, which is regularly sung on festivals in the Church of God, he has wholly erased from the place where it stood. But why should I enumerate these cases one by one, when their number cannot be estimated?

This, however, cannot be passed over. The seventy translators, each in their separate cells, produced a version couched in consonant and identical words, under the inspiration, as we cannot doubt, of the Holy Spirit; and this version must certainly be of more authority with us than a translation made by a single man under the inspiration of Barabbas. But, putting this aside, I beg you to listen, for example, to this as an instance of what we mean.

Peter was for twenty-four years Bishop of the Church of Rome. We cannot doubt that, amongst other things necessary for the instruction of the church, he himself delivered to them the treasury of the sacred books, which, no doubt, had even then begun to be read under his presidency and teaching.

What are we to say then?

Did Peter the Apostle of Christ deceive the church and deliver to them books which were false and contained nothing of truth?

Are we to believe that he knew that the Jews possessed what was true, and yet determined that the Christians should have what was false?

But perhaps the answer will be made that Peter was illiterate, and that, though he knew that the books of the Jews were truer than those which existed in the church, yet he could not translate them into Latin because of his linguistic incapacity.

What then! Was the tongue of fire given by the Holy Spirit from heaven of no avail to him? Did not the Apostles speak in all languages?

But let us grant that the Apostle Peter was unable to do what our friend has lately done. Was Paul illiterate? we ask; He who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, touching the law a Pharisee, brought up at the feet of Gamaliel?
Could not he, when he was at Rome, have supplied any deficiencies of Peter? Is it conceivable that they, who prescribed to their disciples that they should give attention to reading,( 1 Tim. iv. 13 ) did not give them correct and true reading?
 

Andrew

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These men who bid us not attend to Jewish fables and genealogies, which minister questioning rather than edification; and who, again, bid us beware of, and specially watch, those of the circumcision; is it conceivable that they could not foresee through the Spirit that a time would come, after nearly four hundred years, when the church would find out that the Apostles had not delivered to them the truth of the old Testament, and would send an embassy to those whom the apostles spoke of as the circumcision, begging and beseeching them to dole out to them some small portion of the truth which was in their possession: and that the Church would through this embassy confess that she had been for all those four hundred years in error; that she had indeed been called by the Apostles from among the Gentiles to be the bride of Christ, but that they had not decked her with a necklace of genuine jewels; that she had fondly thought that they were precious stones, but now had found out that those were not true gems which the Apostles had put upon her, so that she felt ashamed to go forth in public decked in false instead of true jewels, and that she therefore begged that they would send her Barabbas, even him whom she had once rejected to be married to Christ, so that in conjunction with one man chosen from among her own people, he might restore to her the true ornaments with which the Apostles had failed to furnish her.

This has been the present which you have made us with your excess of wisdom, that we are all judged even by the heathen as lacking in wisdom.
I reject the wisdom which Peter and Paul did not teach. I will have nothing to do with a truth which the Apostles have not approved.

These are your own words:
“The ears of simple men among the Latins ought not after four hundred years to be molested by the sound of new doctrines.”

Now you are yourself saying:
'Every one has been under a mistake who thought that Susanna had afforded an example of chastity to both the married and the unmarried. It is not true. And every one who thought that the boy Daniel was filled with the Holy Spirit and convicted the adulterous old men, was under a mistake. That also was not true.
And every congregation throughout the universe, whether of those who are in the body or of those who have departed to be with the Lord, even though they were holy martyrs or confessors, all who have sung the Hymn of the three children have been in error, and have sung what is false.
Now therefore after four hundred years the truth of the law comes forth for us, it has been bought with money from the Synagogue. When the world has grown old and all things are hastening to their end, let us change the inscriptions upon the tombs of the ancients, so that it may be known by those who had read the story otherwise, that it was not a gourd but an ivy plant under whose shade Jonah rested; and that, when our legislator pleases, it will no longer be the shade of ivy but of some other plant.'
 

Andrew

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Interesting that list List Anthanasius quotes when Anthanasius himself says they aren't part of the canon in the Festal Letter.
Interesting that Anthanasius says that these books were handed down from the Apostles, and then Includes what Scripture they call "Canon" and and what are called "Ecclesiasticals" and then that the Apocrypha are the books never to be read in church and doesn't even name them.. thus Jerome got it wrong by labeling books "Apocrypha" when they truly were not!

Post the full quote
 
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Lanman87

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Lanman87

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Interesting that Anthanasius says that these books were handed down from the Apostles, and then Includes what Scripture they call "Canon" and and what are called "Ecclesiasticals" and then that the Apocrypha are the books never to be read in church and doesn't even name them.. thus Jerome got it wrong by labeling books "Apocrypha" when they truly were not!

Post the full quote


4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second 1 being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth 2 as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second 3 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the Twelve [minor prophets] being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle, one book; afterwards Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

5. Is about the New Testament

6. These are the fountains of salvation, that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone the teaching of godliness is proclaimed. Let no one add to these; let nothing be taken away from them. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures. And he reproved the Jews, saying, Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of me.

7. But for the sake of greater exactness I add this also, writing under obligation, as it were. There are other books besides these, indeed not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being merely read; nor is there any place a mention of secret writings. But such are the invention of heretics, who indeed write them whenever they wish, bestowing upon them their approval, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as if they were ancient writings, they find a means by which to lead astray the simple-minded.


It is clear that he differentiates between the "Old Testament" and "other books". And that these other books are not included in the Canon but to be "merely read" for instruction in godliness.
 
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