Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[Albion]

But no church of this world, no.

In other words, you aren't affiliated with a church.

Let's put it another way. Do you ATTEND any church? If so, what does it have to say about your peculiar view concerning the meaning of the commandment and murder?

 

[DanielL]

God did in fact command sacrifices of animals.

God cannot command sin, nor abominations that He hates and are against His Will. So, He didn't, not even if men say He did, the witness of God is greater.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

which ones are "clean" to eat.

The LORD cannot change, nor His Law..

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.

Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

-So, if God said herbs and fruits are food, it means they are food FOREVER, nothing can be put to it, nothing can be added, He doesn't change, He will never legalize murder, He will always hate abomination.

When you say He changed His mind from herbs and fruits, to "every moving thing that liveth" and then changed again to just some animals and not pigs.. You are left with nothing but an imperfect idol that changed his mind multiple times, and changed his imperfect word and his imperfect law. And who knows maybe he will change again? Nothing is certain with your idol, because he is imperfect and changes his laws..

the Israelites were given quail to eat.

They were allowed to eat quail, for the filling up of the chalice of their condemnation.

Numbers 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague.

34 And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

Jesus ate fish with his disciples.

Jesus cannot sin, nor commit abominations, nor go against the Will of the Father. (See the verses I posted above)

Hosea 8:11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

 

[DanielL]

you

This is what happens when you stand reffuted by Scripture, all you can do now is to attack me. If you reject the Word of God why would you believe anything I say? -You don't want to know. You neither know me nor my Father.

 

[Albion]

This is what happens when you stand reffuted by Scripture

Since that isn't what has been revealed by this debate, let's move to your next comment.

, all you can do now is to attack me.

On the contrary, I've asked you some important questions in order to get at the truth of things, and it's you who chose to put this Biblical issue to the rest of us here. You are the person who wrote the Original Post in this thread

If I'd chosen to vilify you out of hand, the posting would have been much different.

If you reject the Word of God why would you believe anything I say?

In that case, I might not; but since the Word of God supports what everyone here but yourself believes about the commandment that prohibits murder, that isn't a problem.

On the other hand, you don't seem willing to tell us if you are even a practicing Christian, so what does that say about someone trusting in the Word of God?

 

[DanielL]

everyone here but yourself believes about the commandment that prohibits murder

As if I hadn't presented Scripture, you have been ignoring it but it won't go away..

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

you don't seem willing to tell us

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

 

[Albion]

As if I hadn't presented Scripture, you have been ignoring it but it won't go away..

You cannot pick and choose among Scripture verses in order to invent a belief. That's what you've done, even if we were to agree (for the sake of the argument) that the verses you keep posting say what you want them to say.

Meanwhile, you've been shown verses that show conclusively that killing an animal is not contrary to the Word of God. In addition to other applicable verses, there are also events in Christ's own life in which he specifically approves of that which you say he opposes. You have not made your case, either from reason or from Scripture.

 

[tango]

"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22 If it is forbidden and sinful to shed blood, then forgiveness is impossible. I agree that the "great and final sacrifice" is Jesus but yes, there was shedding of blood, it was NOT a "bloodless" sacrifice as claimed here.


God undeniably COMMANDED the killing of animals at the Passover. This, to me, settles the matter: if it is sinful and forbidden to kill animals, then God commanded us to sin and do what He had forbidden, and that makes no sense. And Jesus Himself ate the Passover and that included lamb (and that time) so He ate meat and the Bible specifically says Jesus never sinned. And Jesus ate fish the evening of Easter. So, insisting that eating meat is sinful is accusing God of commanding us to sin and accusing Jesus of sinning.

I'm wondering if God is really a closet vegan or something. Maybe the blood was some kind of oblique reference to the sap of a tree or maybe even that funky colored goop you get if you squash a pickled beetroot.

The only alternative would appear to be that our new friend is producing and endlessly repeating an argument that's so totally devoid of anything even remotely resembling logical merit it makes political promises look positively enticing by comparison. And surely that's not the case, right?

 

[DanielL]

you've been shown verses that show conclusively that killing an animal is not contrary to the Word of God.

I know, but the witness of God is greater. So, anything that says God changed His Mind or His Law, is up against the Perfect Nature of God, and is therefore found to be a liar, because the witness of God is greater. So, the change from herbs and fruits to "every moving thing that liveth" is not compatible with a Perfect Immutable God. And as if that weren't enough, they changed it again to exclude pigs..

And I believe that the LORD hates hands that shed innocent blood, that is why He gave us the herbs and the fruits, and not the animals, because He hates hands that shed innocent blood..

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-Also, blood sacrifice is clearly against His Will, I don't know how you are still trying to deny this..

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Jeremiah 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.

3 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.

4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.

5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

 

[tango]

DanielL -

So, no one and no church agrees with you that God used the wrong word in the Commandment: He SHOULD have inspired "harag" so as to show you (alone!) are right but He goofed and inspired the word "tirtach" - requiring you to correct Him by deleting the word He used and replacing it with a very different one....

And no one and no church agrees with you that God commanded people to sin when He told them to kill a lamb at the Passover.

You are correct.

That should give you pause....

You almost have to feel sorry for God at times. You know, he inspired the books we now all Scripture but fumbled over a word here and a word there and now he's kinda stuck with it. Poor God. It must be humiliating to have created the heavens and the earth and all that and then gone and made such a stupid mistake.

Unless.... and this is a radical thought so bear with me.... perhaps God didn't make a mistake and some random dude on an internet chat room did. It's a long shot I know but maybe worth a thought.

 

[tango]

 

[DanielL]

It's irrefutable, it is founded on the Perfect Immutable Nature of God, there is no circle, there is a Perfect point of Origen.
And because it is irrefutable, that is why you are not even addressing it, because you know there is no denying it, so you try to make fun of me, and mock and scoff, because there isn't anything else you could do, really. It is irrefutable, because it has God has foundation.

 

[tango]

It's irrefutable, it is founded on the Perfect Immutable Nature of God, there is no circle, there is a Perfect point of Origen.
And because it is irrefutable, that is why you are not even addressing it, because you know there is no denying it, so you try to make fun of me, and mock and scoff, because there isn't anything else you could do, really. It is irrefutable, because it has God has foundation.

... except for the times that God said to kill animals, which you deny because it breaks your circular reasoning.

Honestly, your endless repetition has long since become comical. People have pointed out the problems with your theory and you respond by endlessly reposting the same verses, and make the same vague references to who we are following that every other pusher of loopy theology out there posts.

I'm not making fun of you, I'm making fun of your silly theories that require that much of Scripture be wrong. But I have to admire one thing you achieved. On many topics there's disagreement among people on the board - we have differing opinions on lots of things. So far you seem to have brought everyone together in thinking what you're presenting is silly. Maybe for an encore you could persuade Vladimir Putin to leave Ukraine alone.

 

[Albion]

I know, but the witness of God is greater.

It's already been mentioned several times that Jesus personally approved of killing animals, so that's the witness you are talking about.

 

[DanielL]

for the times that God said to kill animals, which you deny because it breaks your circular reasoning.

A Perfect God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor that which is against His Will. This is what you fail to understand.

If you knew, you wouldn't condemn the guiltless...

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-God cannot command sin nor abominations. Anyone who says He did, is up against the Witness of God, and His Holy Nature.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

-God cannot command that which is against His Will. Anyone who says He does, is up against the Witness of God, and His Perfect Nature.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

-So, He didn't. That is the Truth. When you build on top of the Perfect Immutable Holy God, that is the conclusion you get, He didn't command sin, nor abominations, nor things that are against His Will.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Jesus personally approved of killing animals

You also fail to understand Jesus cannot sin, nor commit abominations, and He does the Will of the Father, so the answer I gave on top, to your brother, serves for you too. He didn't. The Witness of His Perfect Immutable Holy Nature is Greater. Once again, if you had known...

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-Jesus even freed the animals from the temple, saying His House is a House of prayer, but they had made it into a den of thieves, filled with all manner of abominations, such has shedding innocent blood. The zeal of thine House hath eaten me up..

Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

-This already had been rebuked by the mouth of Jeremiah, at the temple.

Jeremiah 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.

3 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.

4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.

5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

-The shedding innocent blood refers to the innocent blood of the animals the people of Judah were there to sacrifice. The lying words are the corruption of the covenant of Levi that made them think the LORD commanded such abominations, when He didn't, much like you guys trust in lying words, even to this day, and don't understand that He didn't.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

 

[Josiah]

God cannot command sin

And He commanded people to kill lambs in Exodus 12:6. So either killing animals is not sin OR you are wrong and God does command people to sin.

Case closed.




.

 

[Castle Church]

Just a sample of some verses that outright refute your premise that God never required or endorsed killing of animals.

All of Leviticus 1 speaks to animal sacrifices. It starts with:

The Lord called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock.

and ends with:

It is a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the Lord.

Leviticus 3 goes on with animal sacrifices as well:

If his offering is a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offers an animal from the herd, male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the Lord

and again ends with:

And the priest shall burn them on the altar as a food offering with a pleasing aroma. All fat is the Lord's.

Leviticus 4:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, 3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering.

and Leviticus on eating animals:
Leviticus 11:

And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. .....................

No one should argue that a sacrifice did not also require a contrite heart, in regards to animal Sacrifices. But to say that God did not require (at one point) animal sacrifice or instruct people how to slaughter animals, and what animals were clean, is just silly and not at all scriptural.

Not only is it not scriptural, it is twisting scripture to fit a narrative that is just not there.

 

[Lanman87]

As if I hadn't presented Scripture, you have been ignoring it but it won't go away..

Why do you believe the scripture you quote but not believe the scriptures I (and others have quoted). What makes your scripture references have greater value than our scripture references?

You are asking us to believe your interpretation of scripture, which ignores a large portion of scripture. Instead of believing what the scriptures actually say.

So for me it is simple. Believe some random person on the internet with a novel belief that is not part of historic Christianity or Judaism. Or believe the Word of God as recorded in the scriptures. It is a pretty easy choice.

 

[Lanman87]

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

You keep quoting this verse. It does not mean what you think it means. This is God showing the hypocrisy of the Jews. Their offering aren't acceptable because of the state of their hearts toward God. Even the grain offerings weren't acceptable to God. It has nothing to do with "killing an animal" it has to do with the sacrifices not being acceptable to God.

Read it in the NLT

My hands have made both heaven and earth;
they and everything in them are mine.[a]
I, the Lord, have spoken!
“I will bless those who have humble and contrite hearts,
who tremble at my word.
3 But those who choose their own ways—
delighting in their detestable sins—
will not have their offerings accepted.
When such people sacrifice a bull,
it is no more acceptable than a human sacrifice.
When they sacrifice a lamb,
it’s as though they had sacrificed a dog!
When they bring an offering of grain,
they might as well offer the blood of a pig.
When they burn frankincense,
it’s as if they had blessed an idol.
4 I will send them great trouble—
all the things they feared.
For when I called, they did not answer.
When I spoke, they did not listen.
They deliberately sinned before my very eyes
and chose to do what they know I despise.”

 

[Albion]

A Perfect God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor that which is against His Will. This is what you fail to understand.

I understand it very well, and what's more important, Scripture is on the side of everyone here except yourself when it comes to understanding what his will actually is.

But since you have nothing more to offer and cannot rebut the many points made by everyone else here, we truly are at "case closed."

 

[DanielL]

He commanded people to kill lambs in Exodus 12:6.

He didn't. Ignoring Scripture won't make it go away..

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Now, you choose whom will ye serve. The LORD that hates hands that shed innocent blood, or the bloodthirty murderer who demands bloodshed, and delights in abominations. You can't serve both masters.

God does command people to sin.

This shows whom you serve, an imperfect idol, that commands sin. You are even admitting killing animals is a sin, saying God commands it, which is blasphemy, God is Holy and does not command sin, only your idol does.