Did some people get saved after they died?

[Josiah]

For what other purpose?

Sorry, "for what other purpose" is not "For the purpose of saving them."

Our friend said some here disagree with him "BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS." Not, "Because they disagree with my personal speculation that I insist God and all on earth must agree with" but "WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS."

I noted it's very likely we'd agree with him if he shows he told the truth - the BIBLE SAYS that. We'll just wait for the quote from God that we deny. Until then, we're disagreeing that his personal speculation IS the same as what the Bible states... and his condemnation of us for not equating his speculation with the words found in the Bible.



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[Lanman87]

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”
John 5:25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:25 - New King James Version

It sounds to me that Jesus made it crystal clear what his preaching to the dead accomplished.

Keeping reading in that chapter to see the purpose of the dead coming to life:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

The fact is, we all be ressurected to a new life, Both the saved and the unsaved. All of the dead will "hear His voice and come forth".

 

[Andrew]

Sorry, "for what other purpose" is not "For the purpose of saving them."

Our friend said some here disagree with him "BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS." Not, "Because they disagree with my personal speculation that I insist God and all on earth must agree with" but "WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS."

I noted it's very likely we'd agree with him if he shows he told the truth - the BIBLE SAYS that. We'll just wait for the quote from God that we deny. Until then, we're disagreeing that his personal speculation IS the same as what the Bible states... and his condemnation of us for not equating his speculation with the words found in the Bible.



.

It technically does not spell it out for us, but we do know that there is only one reason to preach, right?

 

[NathanH83]

Quote the verse that states, "... in order to save them."






We will just as soon as you quote where the Bible says "... for the purpose of saving them."

Until then, we're disagreeing with your SPECULATION and your demand that if you personally speculate something, all must agree with you (including God in Heaven above) or we are stupid, ignorant unbelievers. But we know: you see no difference whatsoever between what you speculate and what God states,




.

The gospel was preached to the dead “that they might live”
1 Peter 4


“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4:6 - New King James Version

Why was the gospel preached to the dead?
So that they might live. That’s what the Bible says.

 

[NathanH83]

Keeping reading in that chapter to see the purpose of the dead coming to life:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

The fact is, we all be ressurected to a new life, Both the saved and the unsaved. All of the dead will "hear His voice and come forth".

That’s in the future, at the end times.
I was quoting the verse where Jesus says “and now is”
That’s talking about something that was NOW happening (in Jesus’ time)

 

[Andrew]

That’s in the future, at the end times.
I was quoting the verse where Jesus says “and now is”
That’s talking about something that was NOW happening (in Jesus’ time)

It's odd how this makes anyone upset... I mean seriously, before Moses and the Law there was the entire cast of Genesis.. so what do we make of their eternal fate having no covenant other than the rainbow?

Is it heretical to believe that Jesus preached to those who had long died in disobedience so that they may have life?

We may not know the number of the souls he saved out of hell and it's probably not of our concern. Originally the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels and then included those who took the mark of the beast, death and hell will also be cast into it... who says Jesus couldn't literally have taken captivity captive including those to whom he preached and were given life?

It's fair to call this a mystery; it's unfair and untrue to say that Christ preached to no dissobedient soul in hades that they might live when Scripture says he did so.

 

[Spindle4]

That’s the entire point that I’m making. Jesus preached to the dead, meaning to the spirits of dead people in Hades, for the purpose of saving them. Why don’t the rest of the people in this forum believe what the Bible says?

I believe that salvation is only available to those who come to faith in Christ in this life, and that the Bible states that after Christ by His Spirit preached through Noah, only the 8 souls in Noah's family were saved from the Great Flood and those who persished were in Hades at the time Peter penned his epistle using the term prison metaphorically.

That there is a difference of interpretation and belief about this shouldn't be a surprise or cause for concern as it is a well known, or evergreen controversy.

 

[NathanH83]

I believe that salvation is only available to those who come to faith in Christ in this life, and that the Bible states that after Christ by His Spirit preached through Noah, only the 8 souls in Noah's family were saved from the Great Flood and those who persished were in Hades at the time Peter penned his epistle using the term prison metaphorically.

That there is a difference of interpretation and belief about this shouldn't be a surprise or cause for concern as it is a well known, or evergreen controversy.

Why would Jesus bother preaching the gospel to them if they can’t be saved?

 

[NathanH83]

It's odd how this makes anyone upset... I mean seriously, before Moses and the Law there was the entire cast of Genesis.. so what do we make of their eternal fate having no covenant other than the rainbow?

Is it heretical to believe that Jesus preached to those who had long died in disobedience so that they may have life?

We may not know the number of the souls he saved out of hell and it's probably not of our concern. Originally the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels and then included those who took the mark of the beast, death and hell will also be cast into it... who says Jesus couldn't literally have taken captivity captive including those to whom he preached and were given life?

It's fair to call this a mystery; it's unfair and untrue to say that Christ preached to no dissobedient soul in hades that they might live when Scripture says he did so.

“Can your hear the demons screaming?
See him bruise the serpant’s head.
The prisoners of Hell he’s redeeming
All the power of death is dead.”
-Keith Green

The prisoners of Hell he’s redeeming???
Keith Green gets it.

 

[NathanH83]

It's odd how this makes anyone upset... I mean seriously, before Moses and the Law there was the entire cast of Genesis.. so what do we make of their eternal fate having no covenant other than the rainbow?

Is it heretical to believe that Jesus preached to those who had long died in disobedience so that they may have life?

We may not know the number of the souls he saved out of hell and it's probably not of our concern. Originally the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels and then included those who took the mark of the beast, death and hell will also be cast into it... who says Jesus couldn't literally have taken captivity captive including those to whom he preached and were given life?

It's fair to call this a mystery; it's unfair and untrue to say that Christ preached to no dissobedient soul in hades that they might live when Scripture says he did so.

And that’s another thing. Scripture says he “took captivity captive”
And when did he do this? When he ascended on high, after descending into the lower parts of the Earth. So where did the captives come from? Hmmmm…. The lower parts of the Earth??

 

[atpollard]

The sad part is that there is a great and grand and beautiful mystery playing out in the pages of scripture as Christ died and descended and led captives free …

From Adam to Christ, the dead went to SHEOL (the grave, a holding place for the dead).​

Within SHEOL are two parts, ABRAHAMS BOSOM (a pleasant place for the dead to wait for … something) and GEHENNA, a terrible place for the torment of the accursed. We see this reality illustrated in the STORY (not a parable) of Lazarus and the Rich Man told by Jesus Christ … who as God incarnate is the only person able to know of such things with perfect certainty.​

​

From Acts onward through the New Testament, we see a new reality described for the fate of the dead. Starting with the thief on the Cross, Jesus began to promise that those that died with faith in Him would be with Him in paradise. “Today” is what Jesus told the thief. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Between Lazarus (and the Rich Man) and the death of Stephen (where he saw Heaven welcoming him) something important happened and everything changed for those that trust in God.​

​

These verses about Christ going to “hell” and “preaching the gospel” and “leading the captives free” and dozens of other verses speak to this mystery. Christ entered SHEOL and laid claim to what was His … the souls waiting in ABRAHAMS BOSOM for the GOSPEL (good news) that God’s redemption had come to fruition. The wait was over. The saints of old were free to join their long awaited Savior. SHEOL (the grave) had given up PARADISE. Those souls that belong to God would henceforth be with God in Heaven awaiting the great and terrible day of the Lord. The day when their bodies would be renewed (great for US) and the day that all unrighteousness and death itself and the grave itself would all be cast into the lake of fire (terrible for God’s enemies).​

… and we ignore it to argue over dog vomit questions like can the damned get a second chance (which is really a back door way of asking … “is God really fair?”)

 

[NathanH83]

The sad part is that there is a great and grand and beautiful mystery playing out in the pages of scripture as Christ died and descended and led captives free …

From Adam to Christ, the dead went to SHEOL (the grave, a holding place for the dead).​

Within SHEOL are two parts, ABRAHAMS BOSOM (a pleasant place for the dead to wait for … something) and GEHENNA, a terrible place for the torment of the accursed. We see this reality illustrated in the STORY (not a parable) of Lazarus and the Rich Man told by Jesus Christ … who as God incarnate is the only person able to know of such things with perfect certainty.​

​

From Acts onward through the New Testament, we see a new reality described for the fate of the dead. Starting with the thief on the Cross, Jesus began to promise that those that died with faith in Him would be with Him in paradise. “Today” is what Jesus told the thief. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Between Lazarus (and the Rich Man) and the death of Stephen (where he saw Heaven welcoming him) something important happened and everything changed for those that trust in God.​

​

These verses about Christ going to “hell” and “preaching the gospel” and “leading the captives free” and dozens of other verses speak to this mystery. Christ entered SHEOL and laid claim to what was His … the souls waiting in ABRAHAMS BOSOM for the GOSPEL (good news) that God’s redemption had come to fruition. The wait was over. The saints of old were free to join their long awaited Savior. SHEOL (the grave) had given up PARADISE. Those souls that belong to God would henceforth be with God in Heaven awaiting the great and terrible day of the Lord. The day when their bodies would be renewed (great for US) and the day that all unrighteousness and death itself and the grave itself would all be cast into the lake of fire (terrible for God’s enemies).​

… and we ignore it to argue over dog vomit questions like can the damned get a second chance (which is really a back door way of asking … “is God really fair?”)

I don’t think it’s dog vomit to simply believe the Bible

 

[Andrew]

The sad part is that there is a great and grand and beautiful mystery playing out in the pages of scripture as Christ died and descended and led captives free …

From Adam to Christ, the dead went to SHEOL (the grave, a holding place for the dead).​

Within SHEOL are two parts, ABRAHAMS BOSOM (a pleasant place for the dead to wait for … something) and GEHENNA, a terrible place for the torment of the accursed. We see this reality illustrated in the STORY (not a parable) of Lazarus and the Rich Man told by Jesus Christ … who as God incarnate is the only person able to know of such things with perfect certainty.​

​

From Acts onward through the New Testament, we see a new reality described for the fate of the dead. Starting with the thief on the Cross, Jesus began to promise that those that died with faith in Him would be with Him in paradise. “Today” is what Jesus told the thief. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Between Lazarus (and the Rich Man) and the death of Stephen (where he saw Heaven welcoming him) something important happened and everything changed for those that trust in God.​

​

These verses about Christ going to “hell” and “preaching the gospel” and “leading the captives free” and dozens of other verses speak to this mystery. Christ entered SHEOL and laid claim to what was His … the souls waiting in ABRAHAMS BOSOM for the GOSPEL (good news) that God’s redemption had come to fruition. The wait was over. The saints of old were free to join their long awaited Savior. SHEOL (the grave) had given up PARADISE. Those souls that belong to God would henceforth be with God in Heaven awaiting the great and terrible day of the Lord. The day when their bodies would be renewed (great for US) and the day that all unrighteousness and death itself and the grave itself would all be cast into the lake of fire (terrible for God’s enemies).​

… and we ignore it to argue over dog vomit questions like can the damned get a second chance (which is really a back door way of asking … “is God really fair?”)

The disobedient though?

 

[Andrew]

I wanted to clarify something.
I am not trying to argue or disagree with anyone's belief on this matter; I am merely asking questions and am curious about what was sincerely meant in these particular passages.

Atpollard mentions Abraham's Bosom/Paradise and the lower parts of Sheol, which surprisingly, many Christians are not too familiar with.

So, according to the majority of peers here, the understanding is that Jesus Christ, who once preached to the disobedient through Noah, preached the Gospel to those 8 souls in Abraham's Bosom (including all of the righteous from Abel to the thief on the cross) that they might have life?

Can somebody please state in a short summary what exactly their understanding is?

Again, the question is not about how many were given life because the Bible never mentions it, just like Maccabees never mentions if the sin offering for the dead did them any good (but let's not go into that here).

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The prisoners of Hell he’s redeeming???
Keith Green gets it.

Consider that living people who are not Christians are prisoners of Hell. They belong to the Devil. So redeeming a prisoner of Hell may be simply preaching to your unsaved neighbor and them converting.

 

[atpollard]

The disobedient though?

[Luke 16:22-31 ESV]

22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"​

The rich man in torment has reason to know that God has fulfilled His promise, too.

 

[atpollard]

I don’t think it’s dog vomit to simply believe the Bible

John 3:18, Matthew 7: 21-23, Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 25:31-46 … then believe it.

 

[NathanH83]

Consider that living people who are not Christians are prisoners of Hell. They belong to the Devil. So redeeming a prisoner of Hell may be simply preaching to your unsaved neighbor and them converting.

Huh?

 

[NathanH83]

John 3:18, Matthew 7: 21-23, Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 25:31-46 … then believe it.

What about them?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

In the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 Abraham says,

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

This seems to preclude any second chance after death.