Relative To Luke 16:19-31

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:26-27 . . Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that
those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may
cross over from there to us.

Although folks aren't permitted to cross back and forth over the chasm, they can at
least communicate visually and audibly. I hope that's still the case because I would
hate to think that I won't be able to catch up with my lost loved ones and my BFFs
before they're permanently vanquished to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev
20:11-15.
_

 

[Josiah]

It's a parable....

But yeah, traditional Christianity has often seen this as confirming that those in Heaven and those in Hell can't visit or exchange places.


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[atpollard]

I heard an excellent exposition on the subject that made a strong case that much confusion arises from the decision of the KJV to translate multiple different words into the same English word “Hell”. By following the original words, much confusion can be avoided.

In the OT there are two places described as destinations: a holding place for the dead, and a place of punishment. This is what we see in the story of Lazarus that Jesus told.

Later, we are told that the dead Jesus went to the holding place for the dead and preached the gospel and led the captives out of their imprisonment.

After the resurrection, we hear that those that die IN CHRIST are immediately present with Him in heaven with a great cloud of witnesses (including the faithful from the OT roll of honor).

Later in Revelation, we read about DEATH and THE GRAVE (the holding place for the dead) being destroyed in the Lake of Fire … no longer needed … after the Judgement where the Saints join God forever and the damned are sent off to “eternal punishment” (whatever that means since I am not here to argue that).

So the “gulf” in the Lazarus parable/story by Jesus represents the PRE-RESSURECTION “grave” divided between those waiting in “Gehenna” and those waiting in “Abraham’s Bossom” for the Christ’s Resurrection to release the souls in the grave to wait in Heaven for the ultimate resurrection of our bodies at the Last Day.

The explanation made a lot of verses that seemed to grind against one another to suddenly slide neatly into place. I leave it to better linguistic scholars to run down all the verses and confirm it for yourself. I just offer it as I received it … as an opinion that seems to fit the verses that I am familiar with better than most “one size fits all” explanations that I have heard.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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There's a distinct possibility that the rich man and Abraham are related because he
addressed the man as "son".

I have two grandsons. I'm not sure how well I will cope should either of them end
up in the wrong place.
_

 

[Spindle4]

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There's a distinct possibility that the rich man and Abraham are related because he
addressed the man as "son".

I have two grandsons. I'm not sure how well I will cope should either of them end
up in the wrong place.
_

Don't worry, there isn't any familial anxiety, nor any sorrow, sadness, grief, or disappointment in heaven.

Mat 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. (30) For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Rev 21:3-7 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. (4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (5) Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (6) And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. (7) He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried by
angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't specified.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie occurs
in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone marked for
the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie phantoms emerge, having
the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering awful moans, and drag their panic
stricken captives down into the ground.

I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but if so; I
can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for him at death
to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures surrounding him with looks on
their faces that could only convey but one unmistakable intent; and I suspect those
sinister beings had been hovering around that poor man and stalking him every day
and night of his entire life without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the
green light to take him down.

Jude 1:9 relates a quarrel between the Devil and an archangel over the disposition
of Moses' remains. No one really knows what that was all about but I'm suspecting
that the Devil wanted to ensure Moses got a pagan funeral, and likely felt he
deserved it seeing as how Moses was a murderer, and had messed up big time
during that incident at the watering rock. So, I wonder if the angels that provided
Lazarus transportation were not also assigned as security to protect him from being
shanghaied by something similar to those mists depicted in "GHOST".
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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There's any number of ways the lost could be making their journeys to the
netherworld. For example instead of being dragged underground by ghastly beings
such as those described in post No.6, they may just fall down into the ground like
water through a sieve.

That's not a ridiculous idea seeing as deceased folk leave this world as disembodied
spirits. According to John 4:24 spirit is immaterial, i.e. it has no mass to speak of.
Spirit's movement isn't impeded by solid materials like metal and dirt, or wood and
stone.

And spirit takes up no space. For example the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 was
possessed by a community of spirits who labeled themselves Legion. Webster's
defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000
foot soldiers with cavalry.
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The legion of spirits that left that man went out and took up residence in a herd of
about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in
the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits
managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that one guy. Just imagine the
number of spirits that could fit into the passenger area of an SUV.

NOTE: Those spirits slipped right out of that man. There was no need to cut him
open so they could evacuate.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said to him: Son, remember that during your lifetime you
had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being
comforted, and you are in anguish.

If true that it isn't necessary to be poor to be saved, nor necessary to be rich to be
lost, then why compare the two men's station in life?

Well; I can't prove this but strongly suspect that the rich man was a miser and
indifferent to deprived folks.

The rich man left Lazarus to foraging garbage when he could've easily funded a
decent soup kitchen for folks in his predicament. The rich man could've sponsored a
free clinic too instead of leaving Lazarus' medical attention to the dogs thereabouts.

The rich man dressed himself in splendid clothing. Lazarus' clothing was likely badly
soiled from his sores and he no doubt would've benefitted greatly from the rich
man's discards. And had the rich man taken the initiative to set up drop boxes
around the neighborhood, others would likely have been drawn to contribute.

You know, Lazarus wasn't living under a bridge nor sheltering in a cardboard box
way across town. He was right there at the rich man's gate where Mr.Pampered had
to go past Lazarus every day on his way out so it wouldn't have inconvenienced the
rich man the slightest to help alleviate the poor wretch's predicament.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else. Well;
judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality types with
whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is found in folks who
lack the milk of human kindness.

When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the afterlife
not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.

• Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for "merciful" is
eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an adjective). And the
word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to pity (as a verb).

So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard-hearted,
thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.

NOTE:A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser fortunate
souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who squanders billions
on military toys while the growth of something like 30 to 40 percent of his citizens'
children are stunted by malnutrition.

Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There are
hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable water is
another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people there are actually
subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The meanwhile, Kim has the
best of everything; he's doing just fine.

You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty of
death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would. Well; just
you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of people down
there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society inside
that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site down below for
Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all over him like hungry
ants on a grasshopper.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he lifted
up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and said: Father
Abraham!

The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old
Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead, yet
here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only another dead
guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were they doing that? Do
the dead have access to some sort of world-wide cemetery network complete with
services like Face Time and Zoom?
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:

"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)

It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e. their
corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how did Abraham
and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation with each other in the
afterlife?

Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain compelled by
reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of a supernatural reality
instead of an impossible fantasy.

Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is memory.
How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind
with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich. man in that story is
able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue. Apparently God has some
sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has yet to discover.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not only have
to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it's
remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only
worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out; that
would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what it's
like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would certainly hold
true. For example: many of the people born and raised in Kim Jong-Un's North
Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better off than they are because they
just simply don't know any better
_

 

[Fritz Kobus]

.
• Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:

"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)

It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e. their
corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how did Abraham
and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation with each other in the
afterlife?

Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain compelled by
reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of a supernatural reality
instead of an impossible fantasy.

Perhaps Solomon in Ecc 9:5 meant that the dead are conscious of nothing at all of this world. The scene in Luke 16:19-31 takes place elsewhere than in this world. So I think there is not a lapse in consciousness between this life and the eternal destination of Heaven or Hell (Hell as the Lake of Fire), just that the dead, in their holding area or whatever we call it, are not aware of the goings on here on earth,..

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have
five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of
torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to
them.

Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old Testament;
which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is able to make folks
wise unto salvation.

However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells me
that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken place: which
leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that took place prior to
both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
_

 

[Fritz Kobus]

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• Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have
five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of
torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to
them.

Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old Testament;
which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is able to make folks
wise unto salvation.

However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells me
that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken place: which
leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that took place prior to
both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
_

Makes sense since Jesus told the story before he was crucified. Of course in that netherworld of the dead, they may not be in the realm of time that we are in.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though
untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not
only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story
about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the
autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far
removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly be a
real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings,
farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving
home, wine skins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig
trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had stepped out of character with a story containing a moon made of
green cheese; we would have good reason to suspect that at least that particular
parable was fantasy; but they're all very consistent; not one of them is so far
removed from normalcy as to have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Anyway, that's the problem I have with Luke 16:19-21. If it's a parable, then I
pretty much have to concede that it's based upon a plausible, real-life incident
same as all the others.
_

 

[Fritz Kobus]

What I have always taken out of this passage of scripture, whether a real life account or a parable, is that we are to trust the scriptures and that our faith must be founded in the Word of God, not on miracles or other stuff such as archeological evidence of biblical events, or creation science. All these things, miracles, archeology, creation science should point us back to the scriptures, knowing that they cannot fail. We may at times misunderstand a scripture passage, and science may be faulty, but never is there a contradiction with the Word of God.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have
five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of
torment.

Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In stockyards,
they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other animals to specific
pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats
targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted in red
and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral goats,
allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them. The red paint
marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children following
you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it's
plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull
from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something
coming up behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards
him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way
out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your
footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led them
down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing themselves
doing the right thing. In other words: they actually Judas-goated their children to
follow mom and dad down there. For some families, the only thing they have to
look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks The Lord. And
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome
to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea
Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures,
excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in fire is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4" Pompeii
worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot enough to kill
salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the
Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even
warmer.

Anyway; point being: the rich man's current circumstances, though disagreeable,
are quite a bit less severe than Isa 66:22-24 and he can take comfort in knowing
he has some time before that scenario kicks in.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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• Mark 4:34 . . But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were
alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for quoting
Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my judicious estimation is
especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is one of God's buddies. (Isa
41:8)

All I'm saying is: if we can't trust Jesus to tell the truth about his Father's friends,
then how are we supposed to trust him to tell the truth about one of us?

This is a serious question because Jesus is the one and only mediator in Heaven
between God and Man. Well; I for one don't want someone unfaithful to me
speaking on my behalf before the throne of God.

One other point: nothing Jesus taught originated with him.

• John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which
I have heard of Him.

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the
Father taught me.

• John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He
gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

• John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent
me.

• John 3:34-35 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is upon
him without measure or limit.

• Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at
many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His
son

I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God directing His
own son to tell us things about people that aren't true; especially about His friends.

• John 17:3 . . You . . the only truthful God

• Heb 6:18 . . it is impossible for God to lie

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him; then I should think it
completely safe to assume that all of Jesus' parables, every one of them, from the
shortest to the longest, are 100% true stories.

As for Abraham; he was a prophet (Gen 20:7). As such, he would be privy to
information normally unavailable to John Que and Jane Doe pew warmer. He is also
one of God's close personal friends. (Gen 18:17-19, Isa 41:8)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham passed on
to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so, means that our
reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich man's. He brushed
aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are wiser than that impious
dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings are the voice of God.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

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I think the rich man's dialogue with Abraham would go something like this in our
day:

"I beg you, father Abraham; send Lazarus to my five brothers, let him warn them,
so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

"Your brothers have Christ and the Apostles; they can listen to them."

"No father, they won't listen to them; but if someone from the dead goes to my
brothers, they will reconsider."

"If your brothers won't listen to Christ and the Apostles, neither will they listen to
someone back from the dead."

It's likely that some people's relations would listen to someone back from the dead,
especially one of their own family whose funeral they attended. But alas, all five of
the lost man's brothers were incorrigible.
_