Not by works?

[Lamb]

Believers are not even Christians but only catechumens
Baptism is required

So that thief on the cross didn't have salvation? Poor theology on your part to assume that which Jesus says is otherwise. Believing is having faith in the Savior and the forgiveness of sins that He won at the cross. Believes are Christians.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

So that thief on the cross didn't have salvation? Poor theology on your part to assume that which Jesus says is otherwise. Believing is having faith in the Savior and the forgiveness of sins that He won at the cross. Believes are Christians.

Why ask about the thief?
Baptism is not required till the new covenant is in effect, that’s at the death of Christ, then baptism is required

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Lamb]

Why ask about the thief?
Baptism is not required till the new covenant is in effect, that’s at the death of Christ, then baptism is required

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

We're all saved the same way since Genesis where the promise of a Savior was promised. Before Christ died, the faith was in that promise of the Savior for their sins. We know who the Savior is and that is Jesus, the Christ. Faith clings to Him and even those who die before being baptized but have faith in Him have salvation. That's by grace through faith and not by works. God wants us to be baptized, that's for sure.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

We're all saved the same way since Genesis where the promise of a Savior was promised. Before Christ died, the faith was in that promise of the Savior for their sins. We know who the Savior is and that is Jesus, the Christ. Faith clings to Him and even those who die before being baptized but have faith in Him have salvation. That's by grace through faith and not by works. God wants us to be baptized, that's for sure.

The promise acts 2:38-39 is baptism
Refering to ez 36

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38


Christian ritual of baptism:
Immersion, sprinkling, pour pure water over the forehead three time with the words, I baptize thee in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit! Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21

Proper intention: to make a new creature in Christ, to put on Christ, initiation into the new covenant of grace
Matter: pure water
Form: the words

Born again! Born from above!


'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Never faith alone!

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing
Greatest is not faith or faith alone but charity 1 cor 13:13

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Works follow faith.

But faith is present so works and faith are together, hand in glove. The only exception is, and I believe that is what you mean, that works cannot even begin but that faith is present first.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

It is really very simple if we remember to include v.10 with oft quoted vs. 8 & 9 of Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So it is very simple we are saved by grace that we may do works. The works contribute zero to our salvation but will be present if we are saved.

I also like this verse because it is SO easy to become complacent:

Philippians 2:12b “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

 

[NathanH83]

Is a lack of works Evidence of no faith?

 

[Lamb]

But faith is present so works and faith are together, hand in glove. The only exception is, and I believe that is what you mean, that works cannot even begin but that faith is present first.

Works come because we have faith first. That's what I meant by my post. A fish cannot help but swim but swimming doesn't make it a fish.

 

[Tigger]

Is a lack of works Evidence of no faith?

Yes when reduced to its simplest form.

James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.

 

[Lamb]

Yes when reduced to its simplest form.

James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.

And the reason for that is that those who have faith have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them and He will guide them into bearing fruit that He has planned for us.

 

[NathanH83]

Yes when reduced to its simplest form.

James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works.

I think that if a lot of Christians today lived in Noah’s day, they’d rebuke him for not having faith.

“Stop working on that boat, Noah. Salvation is by faith, not by works. You’re not going to save yourself by your own works by building a boat. Just sit back and relax, and trust that God will supernaturally save you from the flood somehow. You don’t actually have to DO anything. It’s by faith. You have a works mentality.”

 

[Andrew]

I think that if a lot of Christians today lived in Noah’s day, they’d rebuke him for not having faith.

“Stop working on that boat, Noah. Salvation is by faith, not by works. You’re not going to save yourself by your own works by building a boat. Just sit back and relax, and trust that God will supernaturally save you from the flood somehow. You don’t actually have to DO anything. It’s by faith. You have a works mentality.”

I think if Christians today time traveled to Noah's time to stop him it would have catastrophic time altering consequences... GREAT SCOTT!

 

[Lamb]

I think that if a lot of Christians today lived in Noah’s day, they’d rebuke him for not having faith.

“Stop working on that boat, Noah. Salvation is by faith, not by works. You’re not going to save yourself by your own works by building a boat. Just sit back and relax, and trust that God will supernaturally save you from the flood somehow. You don’t actually have to DO anything. It’s by faith. You have a works mentality.”

You're confusing something totally different! LOL

God spoke to Noah to directly and gave him a directive because of the plans God had for the world.

Genesis 8:16-19 Then God spoke to Noah, saying, 16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.” 18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him. 19 Every animal, every creeping thing, every bird, and whatever creeps on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.

 

[NathanH83]

You're confusing something totally different! LOL

God spoke to Noah to directly and gave him a directive because of the plans God had for the world.

Genesis 8:16-19 Then God spoke to Noah, saying, 16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.” 18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him. 19 Every animal, every creeping thing, every bird, and whatever creeps on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.

Confusing what? God gives Christians commands today that many of them don’t follow.

 

[Tigger]

And the reason for that is that those who have faith have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them and He will guide them into bearing fruit that He has planned for us.

Faith is a gift from God but if faith has no works it is dead and that is on us.

 

[Lamb]

Faith is a gift from God but if faith has no works it is dead and that is on us.

It's as if you think that God isn't doing the works through us? If we sit here and demand that we get out there and do some works...that's doing it all wrong.

 

[NathanH83]

It's as if you think that God isn't doing the works through us? If we sit here and demand that we get out there and do some works...that's doing it all wrong.

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. I think he’s saying that the people who have no works…that’s evidence that they don’t really have faith at all.

 

[Andrew]

Confusing what? God gives Christians commands today that many of them don’t follow.

The New Covenant has only two commands, true the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are expected of us as disciples to learn, know, understand and follow, but Noah today would have no need for a great work when the greatest work is done and done.

I see your point tho, if a christian today quotes an apostle as to what we should do then they are ridiculed and scoffed at.

I.e. if I say...

"Christians who steal need to repent and steal no more, not everyone who says 'Lord Lord!' will be saved, you have to put on the new man and be transformed to be truly saved"

I would get rebuked even tho what I said is in line with NT teachings.

 

[Andrew]

@NathanH83
Exactly! Works is evidence of Faith for Faith produces good works.. works alone cannot save, and faith without works is dead