The mistake of preaching only happiness

[Lamb]

During the sermon today at church, the pastor boldly stated how he hated that today's American Evangelicals preach only happiness...happiness when you find your purpose, happiness when you find your direction. But, he loves the churches who celebrate All Saints Day because it forces us to look at our mortality. It forces us to realize that we still lives in these sinful bodies where there is suffering and affliction. And of course death.

Too many churches don't want to talk about how God allows us to suffer, yet the NT is filled with the sufferings of the faithful. God didn't promise we'd always be happy here on this earth.

 

[psalms 91]

We can rest in the knowledge that even with trials we can emerge victorious in all things. While we can go through many trials we can always emerge wiser and better if we allow God to work in us

 

[Lamb]

We can rest in the knowledge that even with trials we can emerge victorious in all things. While we can go through many trials we can always emerge wiser and better if we allow God to work in us

This is very true. But we WILL go through trials and tribulations and have to face the fact that we will get sick. We will die. Some American Evangelicals prefer to preach the opposite, the feel good stuff and avoid our mortality.

The Disciples, as history suggests, suffered horrendous deaths with the exception of John. God allowed that.

 

[psalms 91]

While what you say is true I prefer to speak life instead of death, to speak to the illness or disease in the name of Jesus knowing that healing is available to us.

 

[tango]

While what you say is true I prefer to speak life instead of death, to speak to the illness or disease in the name of Jesus knowing that healing is available to us.

That's hugely presumptuous, in that it assumes that God's will is to heal in any given situation.

We should be ready to hear God calling us to speak words into a situation but at the same time it's dangerous to get ahead of ourselves and presume to speak on God's behalf, if God has not actually spoken.

 

[Brighten04]

While what you say is true I prefer to speak life instead of death, to speak to the illness or disease in the name of Jesus knowing that healing is available to us.

AMEN! When will our sisters and brothers understand eternal life? .
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Speak life into every situation and trust Our Father. Jesus went around healing people.

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35
And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Sickness belongs to our Father's adversary,and so does death. But I have found that people will fight to be sick.So sad. They will hug sickness to them like a coat. But that is what they have gotten comfortable with and have made the spirit of infirmity a familiar friend.

All means all. The Bible says
Psalm 103King James Version (KJV)

103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

6 The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.

 

[tango]

All means all. The Bible says
Psalm 103King James Version (KJV)

103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

6 The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.

So why would David have written that after watching the son Bathsheba bore him die because God didn't heal the boy?

 

[Lamb]

Paul's Thorn and God's Grace
2 Corinthians 12:8 7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness."

Paul prayed 3 times to have his thorn removed and we know how filled with faith Paul was, yet God didn't say, "Sure, let me heal you because you have faith," did He?

God promises healing but you must remember that the ultimate healing is of our souls and that we will have new bodies (perfected) when Christ comes again. THAT is the fulfillment of our healing.

 

[Brighten04]

So why would David have written that after watching the son Bathsheba bore him die because God didn't heal the boy?

David also wrote Psalms 103. Jesus healed people and told us to do likewise. Are you saying that Jesus went against the will of our Father? Did Jesus command us to go against the will of our Father?

 

[Brighten04]

Paul's Thorn and God's Grace
2 Corinthians 12:8 7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness."

Paul prayed 3 times to have his thorn removed and we know how filled with faith Paul was, yet God didn't say, "Sure, let me heal you because you have faith," did He?

God promises healing but you must remember that the ultimate healing is of our souls and that we will have new bodies (perfected) when Christ comes again. THAT is the fulfillment of our healing.

Paul did not say he was sick. Commentators say he might have been sick.

 

[tango]

David also wrote Psalms 103. Jesus healed people and told us to do likewise. Are you saying that Jesus went against the will of our Father? Did Jesus command us to go against the will of our Father?

David wrote Ps 103 that talks of healing our diseases, even though David himself watched his own son stricken with illness and die. So obviously God didn't heal all of his son's diseases. So pointing out that David wrote the psalm doesn't really add anything to the discussion here.

Your question about Jesus presents a false dichotomy. The options aren't "God always heals" or "God never heals". In the middle of the two, providing an inconvenient counter to both the hypercharismatics and the cessationists, is the third option that "God sometimes heals".

If you want to claim that God always heals you need to explain every example when God did not heal. As we discussed in another thread the case of Timothy is just one of many such examples. Likewise if you want to claim that God never heals you need to explain the times when he does. The middle path, that God sometimes heals, is consistent with not only what Jesus did but also consistent with what we see around us today.

 

[tango]

Paul did not say he was sick. Commentators say he might have been sick.

Since the question was never answered in the other thread, let's bring up poor Timothy. The one Paul told to take a little wine for his "frequent infirmities".

 

[Brighten04]

David wrote Ps 103 that talks of healing our diseases, even though David himself watched his own son stricken with illness and die. So obviously God didn't heal all of his son's diseases. So pointing out that David wrote the psalm doesn't really add anything to the discussion here.

Your question about Jesus presents a false dichotomy. The options aren't "God always heals" or "God never heals". In the middle of the two, providing an inconvenient counter to both the hypercharismatics and the cessationists, is the third option that "God sometimes heals".

If you want to claim that God always heals you need to explain every example when God did not heal. As we discussed in another thread the case of Timothy is just one of many such examples. Likewise if you want to claim that God never heals you need to explain the times when he does. The middle path, that God sometimes heals, is consistent with not only what Jesus did but also consistent with what we see around us today.

When our Father uses the words will and shall it means it is a sure thing. I believe David's son died because of David's sin with Bathsheba. Remember David lived under the Old Covenant Law.
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But Jesus came and gave us a New Covenant apart from the law.
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We have received the blessing of Abraham who was not under the law. I am thinking that you will not receive this but I hope you will, for it is time for it is high time for all of us to be about our Father's business. In the book of James 5th chapter He tells us what to do.

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Wow! It said the prayer of faith shall save the sick. And the Lord shall raise him up . Notice it did not say sometimes He will save the sick; or sometimes the Lord will raise him up. So are you saying our Father is a liar? Is James the liar? Who is lying? The Bible says let God be true and every man a liar.


Romans 3:3-5King James Version (KJV)

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Now, if you have trouble accepting the Word of our Father, you need to go to Him and ask Him to help you understand better. He will answer you. That is what I did. It is time to wake up from your slumber.

 

[Brighten04]

Since the question was never answered in the other thread, let's bring up poor Timothy. The one Paul told to take a little wine for his "frequent infirmities".

What is wrong with that? He gave Timothy the cure.

 

[tango]

When our Father uses the words will and shall it means it is a sure thing. I believe David's son died because of David's sin with Bathsheba. Remember David lived under the Old Covenant Law.

Sure he did, but then he wrote the psalm while under that law. You can't pick and choose - what you're doing here is picking a verse you like but then complaining about a counter to it based on which covenant people were under. The verse was written by David even though David himself had seen his son die.

So unless you want to say that "who heals all your diseases" means something other than "who heals all your diseases" (which appears to be the case if you're looking to explain why David's son apparently wasn't covered under that word "all") you need to figure a better defence.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But Jesus came and gave us a New Covenant apart from the law.
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We have received the blessing of Abraham who was not under the law. I am thinking that you will not receive this but I hope you will, for it is time for it is high time for all of us to be about our Father's business. In the book of James 5th chapter He tells us what to do.

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Wow! It said the prayer of faith shall save the sick. And the Lord shall raise him up . Notice it did not say sometimes He will save the sick; or sometimes the Lord will raise him up. So are you saying our Father is a liar? Is James the liar? Who is lying? The Bible says let God be true and every man a liar.


Romans 3:3-5King James Version (KJV)

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Now, if you have trouble accepting the Word of our Father, you need to go to Him and ask Him to help you understand better. He will answer you. That is what I did. It is time to wake up from your slumber.

Let's leave the cheap jibes out of this, if we're going to attempt to have a rational discussion there's really no place for terms like "wake from your slumber" and suggesting I'm somehow deficient in accepting God's word. I'm not rejecting God's word here, I'm merely questioning a specific interpretation of God's word that I consider to be lacking in merit.

That said, you've pulled out a few verses that aren't entirely relevant to the matter at hand but brought up the same verse from James that was discussed at considerable length in the other threads and those who believed that God always healed seemed to go into a spinning loop when asked to explain why Timothy wasn't healed.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

It's a shame Paul didn't think to send Timothy to the elders to have them pray for him. Maybe it's not quite as simple as it might first appear.

 

[Brighten04]

Sure he did, but then he wrote the psalm while under that law. You can't pick and choose - what you're doing here is picking a verse you like but then complaining about a counter to it based on which covenant people were under. The verse was written by David even though David himself had seen his son die.

So unless you want to say that "who heals all your diseases" means something other than "who heals all your diseases" (which appears to be the case if you're looking to explain why David's son apparently wasn't covered under that word "all") you need to figure a better defence.

So you are saying Here that the Word is not true because David's son died. I don't need a better defense. I believe the Word of our Father. And I don't pick and choose. When the people sinned it brought the curse. Read the Law.

Let's leave the cheap jibes out of this, if we're going to attempt to have a rational discussion there's really no place for terms like "wake from your slumber" and suggesting I'm somehow deficient in accepting God's word. I'm not rejecting God's word here, I'm merely questioning a specific interpretation of God's word that I consider to be lacking in merit.

That said, you've pulled out a few verses that aren't entirely relevant to the matter at hand but brought up the same verse from James that was discussed at considerable length in the other threads and those who believed that God always healed seemed to go into a spinning loop when asked to explain why Timothy wasn't healed.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

It's a shame Paul didn't think to send Timothy to the elders to have them pray for him. Maybe it's not quite as simple as it might first appear.

First, I made no cheap jibes. And I am sorry you took my words that way. Sometimes I speak scripture when I talk or type. God's word speaks for itself. If my interpretation lacks merit, it is because I believe what the Word says. As far as my pulling verses from another thread, I didn't. Which thread? Where in the Bible does it say Timothy was not healed? Timothy didn't need the elders. He only needed to drink a little wine to fix his digestive issues. The enzymes and probiotics in wine prevent a lot of gas and constipation. An old proverb says an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I am sure that if Timothy had been down sick, Paul himself would have anointed him with the oil and prayed the prayer of faith over him.

 

[visionary]

To those who are hurting, these beautiful words of healing are like balm to the soul. To those who are healed, the new threats of danger are important.

 

[Lamb]

Paul did not say he was sick. Commentators say he might have been sick.

Paul was not healed of his affliction. Whether it was sickness or whatever, there was no healing.

This thread wasn't supposed to be about healing though. Could we get back to the mistake of preaching only happiness?

 

[Brighten04]

Paul was not healed of his affliction. Whether it was sickness or whatever, there was no healing.

This thread wasn't supposed to be about healing though. Could we get back to the mistake of preaching only happiness?

OK let us look at the passage. Actually Paul told us what his thorn was, and it was not sickness.

2 Cor. 12:Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

A messenger from Satan,insults, hardship, persecutions,difficulties, these were his weaknesses, not sickness. Paul was beheaded for his faith. He did not die from sickness. Now look back in the book of Acts.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

Lord Jesus told Ananias that Saul/Paul was going to suffer much for His name sake.

2 Cor. 11:Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

This is quite an extensive list of Paul's suffering, but not once did he mention sickness.

 

[Brighten04]

Lam, yes, let us get back on track with your thread. But you cannot talk about sickness in a negative way and not get feedback about healing.