Is penance biblical?

[Albion]

Well of course that's biblical, but I'm referring to penance after confession, like 50 Hail Marys

Understood. But it's worth knowing that the "Five Hail Marys and five Our Fathers" that get assigned are meant as a token only, and that's how the church sees this.

Saying them is just a gesture on the part of the person who has just confessed his sins and been absolved of them, following his admission of guilt and a promise to amend his life.

 

[Andrew]

Understood. But it's worth knowing that the "Five Hail Marys and five Our Fathers" that get assigned are meant as a token only, and that's how the church sees this.

Saying them is just a gesture on the part of the person who has just confessed his sins and been absolved of them, following his admission of guilt and a promise to amend his life.

So what is penance then? Punish yourself by doing the right thing like Stephen suggest?

Why not just repent like the Bible says?

 

[Albion]

So what is penance then? Punish yourself by doing the right thing like Stephen suggest?

Why not just repent like the Bible says?

What I described is what is called "penance." At one time, there were severe penances, but now the act of confessing and being contrite is considered sufficient, and saying a few prayers afterwards that the priest assigns is considered adequate.

Also, it used to be the case that what the average person calls "confession" was officially termed the Sacrament of Penance, but as with the word Purgatory, that term was thought by the modern church to be overly scary, so it's now called Reconciliation.

 

[NathanH83]

Definition: voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

How is this biblical?

Penance is biblical, depending on what day of the week it is.

 

[Josiah]

Well of course that's biblical, but I'm referring to penance after confession, like 50 Hail Marys

Penance:

DEFINITION: a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

While not a specific "sacrament" in Protestantism (I think it is in Anglicanism, however) it IS embraced and practiced. It simply means CONFESSION, confessing our sins (especially to a fellow Christian rather than EXCLUSIVELY to God only). I think this is biblical.


I think there's some biblical support for the ancient Judaeo Christian custom of restoration. If a 12 year old boy acted irresponsibily and broke the neighbor's window with a baseball, he should CONFESS this certainly to God (because he has sinned against God) but also the neighbor (for he has also sinned against him). But it has always been a teaching that if possible, he should pay for that window. Of course, this isn't always possible.

I think what you may be addressing, my brother, is where this is frankly unrelated to the sin. Saying 5 Hail Mary's does nothing about the sin. I think this can be very mechanical and rote (been there, done that!). BUT as I understand it, the concept here is not restitution but addressing our sinful nature, it's for the sinner's benefit not the benefit of the one sinned against. I think the thought it this will HELP the person grow spiritually and in their process of sanctfication. I think this CAN be good but I agree, I think how this is done often gets interpreted as "punishment" and often isn't of much value.


My half cent.


- Josiah




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[Lamb]

Penance:

DEFINITION: a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

While not a specific "sacrament" in Protestantism (I think it is in Anglicanism, however) it IS embraced and practiced. It simply means CONFESSION, confessing our sins (especially to a fellow Christian rather than EXCLUSIVELY to God only). I think this is biblical.


I think there's some biblical support for the ancient Judaeo Christian custom of restoration. If a 12 year old boy acted irresponsibily and broke the neighbor's window with a baseball, he should CONFESS this certainly to God (because he has sinned against God) but also the neighbor (for he has also sinned against him). But it has always been a teaching that if possible, he should pay for that window. Of course, this isn't always possible.

I think what you may be addressing, my brother, is where this is frankly unrelated to the sin. Saying 5 Hail Mary's does nothing about the sin. I think this can be very mechanical and rote (been there, done that!). BUT as I understand it, the concept here is not restitution but addressing our sinful nature, it's for the sinner's benefit not the benefit of the one sinned against. I think the thought it this will HELP the person grow spiritually and in their process of sanctfication. I think this CAN be good but I agree, I think how this is done often gets interpreted as "punishment" and often isn't of much value.


My half cent.


- Josiah




.

Lutherans define Sacrament differently than Catholics so I disagree that it's biblical. Also it says "intention of amendment" and that's amendment before God...which already has been taken care of by Jesus before God. And accepted by God.

 

[Josiah]

Lutherans define Sacrament differently than Catholics so I disagree that it's biblical. Also it says "intention of amendment" and that's amendment before God...which already has been taken care of by Jesus before God. And accepted by God.

Lamm,

You might be interested in reading the Apology to the Augsburg Confession Articles 11 and 12. In both, Penance is called a Sacrament. You'll find much else on this topic, with emphasis on the Lutheran DENIAL of the Catholic third part.

While the Small Catechism says "there are two sacraments" this is not understood as a dogmatic limitation; technically Lutheranism does not define how many sacraments there are. We find Luther himself and Lutheran Fathers often speaking especially of Penance as a sacrament. It seems to ONLY "Seven" Luther ever said was NOT a Sacrament was marriage.

IMO, the Catholic "third part" has value but I agree with the Lutheran Confessions that it is not technically a part of confession (and the sacrament) AND that it can be very abused and detract from the Gospel.


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[Lamb]

Lamm,

You might be interested in reading the Apology to the Augsburg Confession Articles 11 and 12. In both, Penance is called a Sacrament. You'll find much else on this topic, with emphasis on the Lutheran DENIAL of the Catholic third part.

While the Small Catechism says "there are two sacraments" this is not understood as a dogmatic limitation; technically Lutheranism does not define how many sacraments there are. We find Luther himself and Lutheran Fathers often speaking especially of Penance as a sacrament. It seems to ONLY "Seven" Luther ever said was NOT a Sacrament was marriage.

IMO, the Catholic "third part" has value but I agree with the Lutheran Confessions that it is not technically a part of confession (and the sacrament) AND that it can be very abused and detract from the Gospel.


.

Our terminology of "penance" meaning confession/absolution is not equal to the Catholic one of "penance".

Here is one thing that the Priest will do that Lutherans reject:

The priest will assign you a (5) penance. The penance takes into account your personal situation and supports your spiritual good. It may be a prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service, or sacrifice; whatever the penance, the individual is joined in some way to Christ and the cross.

Confession Step by Step - Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament

Confession is a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ in his love and mercy to offer sinners forgiveness for offenses against God and against your sisters and br

www.altoonacathedral.org

 

[RichWh1]

Penance is not biblical. Repentance is.
When Jesus told the woman’go sin no more’, that was penance with a repentant mind

Repentance is a change of mind so i we are truly repentant we will repent.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

Our terminology of "penance" meaning confession/absolution is not equal to the Catholic one of "penance".

My point is the Lutheran Confessions do speak of Penance as a Sacrament. I'll agree with you that TODAY, in GENERAL PRACTICE, Lutherans speak of TWO Sacraments and have adopted a specific definition of "sacrament." However, the Apology specifically states that Penance/absolution as a "sacrament" and lists it with the sacraments along with Baptism and the Lord's Supper. The Confessions, the Lutheran "Fathers" and Luther himself make it clear that the precise definitions and numeration we used today are by no means original (or binding). Indeed, the only thing Luther specially rejected as a 'sacrament' was marriage (Luther argued that ALL religions have this, Catholics argued that only Christians have Christian marriage).

As I noted, Lutherans rejected the third part of penance - and thus there is a difference in terms of what we mean by the term. I think the implied point of this thread is valid.... Lutherans do reject the idea that we must do some punishment, but then I never found that concept in modern Catholicism... the point I experienced as a Catholic was things we do to strenghen our spiritual life so as to be more controlling over sinful acts.


Blessings!


- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

My point is the Lutheran Confessions do speak of Penance as a Sacrament. I'll agree with you that TODAY, in GENERAL PRACTICE, Lutherans speak of TWO Sacraments and have adopted a specific definition of "sacrament." However, the Apology specifically states that Penance/absolution as a "sacrament" and lists it with the sacraments along with Baptism and the Lord's Supper. The Confessions, the Lutheran "Fathers" and Luther himself make it clear that the precise definitions and numeration we used today are by no means original (or binding). Indeed, the only thing Luther specially rejected as a 'sacrament' was marriage (Luther argued that ALL religions have this, Catholics argued that only Christians have Christian marriage).

As I noted, Lutherans rejected the third part of penance - and thus there is a difference in terms of what we mean by the term. I think the implied point of this thread is valid.... Lutherans do reject the idea that we must do some punishment, but then I never found that concept in modern Catholicism... the point I experienced as a Catholic was things we do to strenghen our spiritual life so as to be more controlling over sinful acts.


Blessings!


- Josiah




.

My husband is Catholic as was most of the town where I grew up...and penance most definitely was not on par to what Lutherans believed. It included EVERY TIME what I quoted above. It was never Lutheran in that we confess our sins and the priest stands in the stead of Christ and absolves and that's that. For Catholics, there was always something else that the sinner needed to do.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Regarding Stephen's post:

There is a Biblical example of penance as part of repentance.
In Luke’s gospel there a thief called Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector and became wealthy overcharging on tax. One day he met Jesus and had a massive conversion. He said "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold."
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house (Lk 19:8-9)'

What Stephen calls penance I would call restitution. Those are two different things. The Bible seems clear on that when one is born again they should try to right past wrongs. For example, if one was a thief and perhaps embezzeled from their employer, then they should try to figure what the total was, add interest (Zacchaeus goes beyond in restoring fourfold, and there is nothing wrong with that) and then seek to repay the stolen money. Doing so also gives one the chance to explain why the money is being returned, e.g., I never cared before, even bragged about it, etc.. but since I met Jesus and was born again, I must repay you and pray you forgive me. This will make a huge impresson on the person, though that is not the reason for returning the stolen goods. I might even go so far as to wonder about the salvation of one who can make right a past wrong and does not,

 

[Stephen]

Regarding Stephen's post:

What Stephen calls penance I would call restitution. Those are two different things. The Bible seems clear on that when one is born again they should try to right past wrongs. For example, if one was a thief and perhaps embezzeled from their employer, then they should try to figure what the total was, add interest (Zacchaeus goes beyond in restoring fourfold, and there is nothing wrong with that) and then seek to repay the stolen money. Doing so also gives one the chance to explain why the money is being returned, e.g., I never cared before, even bragged about it, etc.. but since I met Jesus and was born again, I must repay you and pray you forgive me. This will make a huge impresson on the person, though that is not the reason for returning the stolen goods. I might even go so far as to wonder about the salvation of one who can make right a past wrong and does not,

Restitution is a form of penance. But what about when restitution is not possible?

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g., Lk 2:37). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Jesus also said "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Mt 16:24). We deny ourselves because we need to learn to conquer our desires. Paul says “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you” (Col 3:5).

But more than just simple denial sometimes it is good to be more actively penitential. Paul said “I pommel my body and subdue it” (1Cor 9:27) and “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). Penitential acts are part of what we do to configure ourselves to Christ who suffered for us.

Although we can be forgiven our sins there may still be punishment from God.
Paul writes:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (1Cor 11:27-30)

From the OT (Ex 32:30)
On the morrow Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Then read vs 31-32

 

[Lamb]

Although we can be forgiven our sins there may still be punishment from God.
Paul writes:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (1Cor 11:27-30)

If God forgives the sin...it's forgiven. Jesus took the punishment.

The verse you quoted is about Holy Communion and those who have fallen ill or died rejected the Real Presence.

 

[Stephen]

If God forgives the sin...it's forgiven. Jesus took the punishment.

Answered in post #8
Going round in circles.

The verse you quoted is about Holy Communion and those who have fallen ill or died rejected the Real Presence.

If Jesus took the punishment why did Paul suggest it was punishment for profaning the body and blood of the Lord?

 

[Lamb]

Answered in post #8
Going round in circles.



If Jesus took the punishment why did Paul suggest it was punishment for profaning the body and blood of the Lord?

It all has to do with faith. Those who have faith receive forgiveness. Those who reject forgiveness or reject the Savior (rejecting faith) don't receive it.

 

[Stephen]

It all has to do with faith. Those who have faith receive forgiveness. Those who reject forgiveness or reject the Savior (rejecting faith) don't receive it.

Paul doesn't mention faith. He refers to abuses, profaning the body and blood, or an unworthy manner.

If Jesus took the punishments for my sin then why do I need forgiveness? The debt has been paid.
If Jesus was punished instead of me where is the justice in that?

BTW any comments on the rest of my6 post #33

 

[Faith]

Jesus took on the punishment meant for our having done wrong (sin), so anything we think we can do to punish ourselves as payment is not biblical and is a slap in the face to the man who already suffered for us.

I was hoping you’d say something like that. When I’d go to Catholic Confession, I’d usually have to say three Hail Mary’s or three Our Fathers or something like that afterwards. I didn’t really view it as a punishment but it’s certainly better than self mortification which I’ve heard some Catholics practice.

 

[Faith]

DEFINITION: a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

While not a specific "sacrament" in Protestantism (I think it is in Anglicanism, however) it IS embraced and practiced. It simply means CONFESSION, confessing our sins (especially to a fellow Christian rather than EXCLUSIVELY to God only). I think this is biblical.



.

I did Confession at my LCMS before, only once. I was uncomfortable because it was face to face.

 

[Lamb]

Paul doesn't mention faith. He refers to abuses, profaning the body and blood, or an unworthy manner.

If Jesus took the punishments for my sin then why do I need forgiveness? The debt has been paid.
If Jesus was punished instead of me where is the justice in that?

BTW any comments on the rest of my6 post #33

Profaning the body and blood would only be done by someone without faith. Taking in an unworthy manner is someone who denies Real Presence.

Jesus took the punishment for your sin so that when you die you receive eternal life. You might receive earthly consequences but that is not punishment from God since Jesus already died for those sins.

Where is justice since Jesus took the punishment that should have been yours? Are you seriously asking that? Jesus suffered greatly for your sins. The justice is that someone stronger than you could bear to tolerate that on the cross and that your sins are atoned for. That's justice.

Doing things that you list in post #33 such as repaying when you stole does not mean you're making a satisfaction to God for your sin. It means you're showing that you love God and your neighbor by making amends and hopefully your neighbor will forgive you.