Salvation outside RCC

[visionary]

Since the sacraments are the ordinary means through which Christ offers the grace necessary for salvation, and the Catholic Church that Christ established is the ordinary minister of those sacraments, it is appropriate to state that salvation comes through the Church.

This is not unlike the situation that existed prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church. Even before it was fully revealed that he was the Messiah, Jesus himself taught that "salvation is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22). He pointed the woman of Samaria to the body of believers existing at that time, through which salvation would be offered to all mankind: the Jews.

In a similar fashion, now that the Messiah has established his Church, Jesus might say, "salvation is from the Catholics"!

Recognizing this, we can see why the Church, especially during times of mass exodus (such as has happened in times when heresies have run rampant), has been even more forceful in the way it has taught this doctrine. Instead of simply pointing out how God offers salvation from Christ, through the Church, the Church has warned that there is no salvation apart from Christ, outside his Church.

Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved. We see this in Jesus’ teaching: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Mt 12:30). Also: "f he [a sinning brother] refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 18:17). Paul warned similarly: "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Ti 3:10-11). http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

 

[Brighten04]

The "Church" first of all is NOT Roman. The "Church " second of all is NOT an organization. The "Church" consists of believers indwelt by the Holy Ghost. They are the body of Christ with Christ Jesus as it's head. The "Church" is a living, breathing entity for it is written:

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Church is Catholic. The idea that Catholic means "Roman" is a fantasy created in the sixteenth century by people who had a vested interest in pretending that their own little corner of the Earth was the centre of the Earth (religiously speaking).

 

[pinacled]

The Church is Catholic. The idea that Catholic means "Roman" is a fantasy created in the sixteenth century by people who had a vested interest in pretending that their own little corner of the Earth was the centre of the Earth (religiously speaking).

Catholic.
Definition according to what time period. I have read a few but most point toward reformation periods.

If I say Church. Should we all know what this means?
-Body of Christ.

 

[pinacled]

Catholic.
Definition according to what time period. I have read a few but most point toward reformation periods.

If I say Church. Should we all know what this means?
-Body of Christ.

I would also like to add.
Repentance.
John gave instruction for the remission of sin.

Luke ch3
And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;
10And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do?
And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise.
And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do?
And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you.
And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

Remember Fruits of the spirit. A good tree bring forth good fruits.

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And even now the axe also lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[pinacled]

I would also like to add.
Repentance.
John gave instruction for the remission of sin.

Luke ch3
And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;
10And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do?
And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise.
And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do?
And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you.
And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

To which I would like to further add.
Yeshua'/Jesus instruction and how the schoolmaster brings us to Salvation.



35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholic.
Definition according to what time period. I have read a few but most point toward reformation periods.

If I say Church. Should we all know what this means?
-Body of Christ.

I can't tell you if you ought to know what Church means or not. I do know what it means when I type it. There is one Church in holy scripture but it has many locations and many people and maybe even many buildings and I know, from past experiences, that people often confuse one thing with another for example, some people confuse Church with a congregation in a particular location or with a building down the street that says "Church" in its name or on its billboard. But regarding the word "Catholic" when used in the phrase and name "Catholic Church" I do not think many people are confused about what it means. There are not many English speaking people who do not know exactly what one means when one says "I am a Catholic" or "I was at mass in the local parish of the Catholic Church". But it is also true that among the non-Catholic yet still Christian portion of the world's English speaking people quite a few insist on saying ROMAN Catholic with special emphasis on the word Roman as if it were some kind of code word that everybody understands but is not especially willing to explain. Once more experience has taught me to understand that when a non Catholic says ROMAN Catholic with the emphasis on Roman they are trying to diminish the Catholic Church in some way, usually by claiming that it is not "universal" and that it is dominated by "ROME" and quite often that it is PAGAN ROMAN rather than Christian. So my perspective is somewhat shaped by the way people use words and the word "Rome" in front of the name of my Church usually means I am chatting with somebody who dislikes Catholicism. Of course that is not always the case, one can say Roman Catholic Church with no special emphasis on the word Roman and mean nothing negative by it but that is not so common in discussion forums like this and I think pretty well everybody here in Christianity Haven knows what Catholic and Catholic Church mean in common spoken English.

The way Catholic was defined in the sixteenth century before the advent of the revolt and reformation that created the "magisterial Protestant denominations" was pretty much synonymous with Christian but after the revolt and reformation Catholic came to mean the old/ancient form of Christianity in western Europe and Protestant came to mean the new/modern forms of Christianity in western Europe. Since that time the word "Protestant" has been used to embrace many denominations that were born quite recently and even many independent groups that eschew the word Protestant and the idea that they are in a denomination, such groups seem to prefer to be called Christian - just Christian - without any further explanation.

My perspective is that folk in Protestant denominations and independent Christian groups can be saved and many will be in heaven and participate in the first resurrection at the return of the Lord. What others think I do not know. If some think I am a pagan because I am a Catholic I do not worry too much about it. In the end I can neither control nor advise them on what is true or not (in my opinion) and they very likely would not receive my advice (being a pagan and all - according to them).

 

[pinacled]

I have learned a lot about the History of the Church and well it may be difficult to see how any are Pagan. Considering possible faults is how I look at it. And then seek a solution with kindness and patience. To every individual and group.
-Many members one body. In Christ.


The Calendar dilemma is something I have learned about recently and hope the RCC is going to reconcile the issue. Maybe you could help out with your Elders.
You see the Temple was destroyed and the Holy people were scattered but not all the Knowledge was lost.
The Scripture is available and there are teachers all over the World these days.


If I may offer something.
Keep the Commandments and the Faith.
If the Church is the Bride in travail it will be different than with the Wisdom of Solomon.

I was reading today in 1 Kings. I am a little behind considering what is being read weekly.
But there is a story of 2 women and 2 children. One died in the night because the mother had lain on it.
This could be looked at as a parable. Though remember always Yeshua is greater than Solomon so compare. Or midrash when reading. So instead of 2 mothers there are 10 virgins. 5 with oil 5 with out.

I believe scripture should follow weekly reading in accordance to the Calendar and lessons within. I learned this recently with the feast days. On the day of atonement I read From Daniel and how nebuchadnezzar had a dream his tree was cut down.

You see there is so much imagery that has spiritual sustenance.
Mathew 4.4
'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

 

[visionary]

The scriptural meaning of the greek term was synagogues of believers in Yeshua. They were hebrew in nature and belief. The faith had not yet separated from Yeshua's faith. It was a Jewish faith that gentiles could join.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes

 

[visionary]

Several factors caused the separation. The apostles had died. The congregations outside of Jerusalem were invaded with gentiles coming in with a lot of pagan god concepts and their leaders were also now mostly gentiles with more greek philosophy than Hebrew mindset. Another factor was the Jewish leaders who rejected Yeshua wanted complete separation from the "Nazarenes" "The Way" congregations because in 70 AD they remembered Yeshua's warning and fled from Jerusalem instead of staying and fighting. It was considered treason by the Jews and it was the last straw for any association with the believers in Yeshua. From that time on, they refused to read Is 53, Daniel's prophecies, and wouldn't associate with their brethren of this faith. Left in the hands of gentiles, it took on a more greek/roman appearance, as time went on, it too shed its Jewishness because of the laws of the Roman empire.

Those who were outside the Roman empire like India where Thomas went remained a Jewish faith in Yeshua until the Jesuits came in 1200 AD. The Copt of Egypt remained Jewish faithful in Yeshua until 700 AD. In Ireland there were Yeshua faithful until Jesuits came in 800 AD. Even the Waldenses were Sabbath keepers in the mountains of northern Italy until 900 AD when they were almost completely wiped out. It almost all countries that the faith was found by Jesuits, their demise was also noted in the ensuing years.

It all started with Roman Laws like all those who worship on Sabbath were to pay a higher tax. Those who were circumcised paid a higher tax. It steadily got worse as time went on. Killed for entertainment by man and beast in the big amphitheaters. It wasn't til Constantine that the government joined forces with the religious groups and came up with a "peaceful" mix. This mix is not "peaceful" to those who disagree with its philosophies. Dark ages ensue.

 

[psalms 91]

Several factors caused the separation. The apostles had died. The congregations outside of Jerusalem were invaded with gentiles coming in with a lot of pagan god concepts and their leaders were also now mostly gentiles with more greek philosophy than Hebrew mindset. Another factor was the Jewish leaders who rejected Yeshua wanted complete separation from the "Nazarenes" "The Way" congregations because in 70 AD they remembered Yeshua's warning and fled from Jerusalem instead of staying and fighting. It was considered treason by the Jews and it was the last straw for any association with the believers in Yeshua. From that time on, they refused to read Is 53, Daniel's prophecies, and wouldn't associate with their brethren of this faith. Left in the hands of gentiles, it took on a more greek/roman appearance, as time went on, it too shed its Jewishness because of the laws of the Roman empire.

Those who were outside the Roman empire like India where Thomas went remained a Jewish faith in Yeshua until the Jesuits came in 1200 AD. The Copt of Egypt remained Jewish faithful in Yeshua until 700 AD. In Ireland there were Yeshua faithful until Jesuits came in 800 AD. Even the Waldenses were Sabbath keepers in the mountains of northern Italy until 900 AD when they were almost completely wiped out.

It all started with Roman Laws like all those who worship on Sabbath were to pay a higher tax. Those who were circumcised paid a higher tax. It steadily got worse as time went on. Killed for entertainment by man and beast in the big amphitheaters. It wasn't til Constantine that the government joined forces with the religious groups and came up with a "peaceful" mix. This mix is not "peaceful" to those who disagree with its philosophies. Dark ages ensue.

Exactly the Way became corrurtedand now there are only a few that find and follow the Way. The way is not a church but rather those who sought and didnt reject the truth of the gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It looks like a very partisan one sided kind of "history"; hardly worthy of the name.

 

[visionary]

If you are following the faith of the apostles and Yeshua, it does take you on a different path than that of the Roman empire/faith.

 

[psalms 91]

If you are following the faith of the apostles and Yeshua, it does take you on a different path than that of the Roman empire/faith.

And most will reject it because it flies in the face of tradition

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you are following the faith of the apostles and Yeshua, it does take you on a different path than that of the Roman empire/faith.

What is this "Yeshua" thing?

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was not born nor given an English name. He never heard Himself being called anything but Yeshua as a child growing up. In fact, the letter J didn't come about until about 500 years ago.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeshua was not born nor given an English name. He never heard Himself being called anything but Yeshua as a child growing up. In fact, the letter J didn't come about until about 500 years ago.

Why does that matter? We write in English and the Lord Jesus Christ's name in English is Jesus.

 

[visionary]

Why does that matter? We write in English and the Lord Jesus Christ's name in English is Jesus.

It may not matter to you, but I like it because it has not been sullied with swear usages.

 

[psalms 91]

Yeshua is a wonderful name, a name above all names, and the one He was given