Visible kingship and the invisible church

[Cassia]

I was reading some of the forums this morning and I came to a realization of the division of the body of Christ, one that can probably still be defined as the visible church and the invisible church.


The defining words presented were “I’m the king in my castle” while I wondered about what Jesus would think of that. First to mind was that He would object to Lording over others, which is what kingship is. Second to mind was that kingship was never a part of the Father’s plan but was the people’s choice so they could be like the other nations.


The other nations had been handed over to the Holy Ones to rule in Genesis 11 while God focused on His small portion in Genesis 12 which became His people Israel. Psalms has many indictments of the wrongs done by the rulers of those nations no longer with God.


Kingship became the testament newly given to Hebrews Order of Melchezedec where the original plan of a kingdom of priests combined with the people’s choice for a human king to rule over them became a reality of truth in Jesus Christ. Kingship was made whole with the priesthood, bringing law and prophet together in Christ alone. The seventy representatives of Moses, Gideon and disciples in retrospect completing the pattern of His own followers.


So what I see happening between the visible and the invisible church is that divide; the divide between those who wish to be kings now and those who know what the bible says about it and have chosen to remain closest to God’s original plan.

 

[Cassia]

Then began the thoughts on what God was doing by giving the law in the first place. It was for the immature until they reached the age of maturity. The age of maturity is what Christ brought to us. Before it was the Jew that was God’s family, Gentiles not. The two becoming one is fulfilled in kingship / priesthood / prophet fully represented.
The Holy One’s gave the law to Moses but Jesus fulfilled the law so He alone leads those who are consecrated to His original plan of Numbers 6:2. From Numbers 6:2 the progression is to those of the incorruptible seed seen in the new creation which is neither Jew/Gentile/ male/female/slave/free.

 

[Albion]

So what I see happening between the visible and the invisible church is that divide; the divide between those who wish to be kings now and those who know what the bible says about it and have chosen to remain closest to God’s original plan.

When we speak of the visible church, what is meant is that the local congregation with its worship services, sacraments, clergy, preaching and so on does the work of Christ on a daily basis and everyone sees it in operation.

The invisible church, on the other hand, refers to the sum of all believers wherever they are and in what denomination, local church, etc.. Together they represent the body of Christ but of course not assembled in one place or at any particular time.

 

[Cassia]

When we speak of the visible church, what is meant is that the local congregation with its worship services, sacraments, clergy, preaching and so on does the work of Christ on a daily basis and everyone sees it in operation.

The invisible church, on the other hand, refers to the sum of all believers wherever they are and in what denomination, local church, etc.. Together they represent the body of Christ but of course not assembled in one place or at any particular time.

The visible church is the organization of the organism which is the body, the outward show of individual participation, you are quite right, but does not account for the voiceless majority, which is in transition. That scenario can be played out in the co-operation of any median. Democracy especially but I consider spirituality to be a theocracy.

The invisible church are those known to Him, who know Him and react to Him, and not to the those who know not what they worship/who or what they believe.

But thanks for the mainstream view.

 

[Albion]

The visible church is the organization of the organism which is the body, the outward show of individual participation, you are quite right, but does not account for the voiceless majority, which is in transition.

Huh? Aren't local congregations and parishes the mainstay of most denominations and the 'organizations' that most Christians turn to for religious services? If not regular Sunday attendance, most Christians seek to be married in a church, have their children baptized in a local church, and so on.

The invisible church are those known to Him, who know Him and react to Him, and not to the those who know not what they worship/who or what they believe.

Of course. We were not including people who aren't Christians. Obviously.

 

[Cassia]

Huh? Aren't local congregations and parishes the mainstay of most denominations and the 'organizations' that most Christians turn to for religious services? If not regular Sunday attendance, most Christians seek to be married in a church, have their children baptized in a local church, and so on.




Of course. We were not including people who aren't Christians. Obviously.

Of course on both ... do you have anything to add to the thread besides trying to define what we can or cannot name to be the vis/invis church? I would like to get beyond the obvious to the less obvious, such as mentioned in the op.

The other nations had been handed over to the Holy Ones to rule in Genesis 11 while God focused on His small portion in Genesis 12 which became His people Israel. Psalms has many indictments of the wrongs done by the rulers of those nations no longer with God.

Kingship became the testament newly given to Hebrews Order of Melchezedec where the original plan of a kingdom of priests combined with the people’s choice for a human king to rule over them became a reality of truth in Jesus Christ. Kingship was made whole with the priesthood, bringing law and prophet together in Christ alone. The seventy representatives of Moses, Gideon and disciples in retrospect completing the pattern of His own followers.

It was for the immature until they reached the age of maturity. The age of maturity is what Christ brought to us. Before it was the Jew that was God’s family, Gentiles not. The two becoming one is fulfilled in kingship / priesthood / prophet fully represented.

The Holy One’s gave the law to Moses but Jesus fulfilled the law so He alone leads those who are consecrated to His original plan of Numbers 6:2. From Numbers 6:2 the progression is to those of the incorruptible seed seen in the new creation which is neither Jew/Gentile/ male/female/slave/free.

Now that the definition of each is established let’s now discuss the op topic. It could be considered 4 different topics but they all together relate in one.

 

[Albion]

Of course on both ... do you have anything to add to the thread besides trying to define what we can or cannot name to be the vis/invis church?

No. That was my purpose. Just to clarify the meaning of those terms.

There was a lot in your initial post to confuse the issue, so a clarification seemed like something that was worth doing.

I would like to get beyond the obvious to the less obvious, such as mentioned in the op.

Go for it.

 

[Cassia]

I’m sure there will be other things to clarify also, np. But ...
I’m not going to ‘go for it’ because I have studied it partly and will add more to the thread as I look further into it, unless others care to look into it themselves. Then I would love to hear their overall view of the subject, even tho I think it speaks for itself as scripture interprets scripture.
I’ve always just been into posting my studies anyway, so good a place as any. This study is about the overlooked spirituality that reflects more onto God’s moves in history than mankind. The wisdom of the world is definitely brought into the spiritual to help mankind rise above their sorrows but I’ve noticed a difference in the works of God and works of the Son in the actions of the Angel of the Lord that I’m trying to ses out, but hopefully others will comment.
Ill be away for a week or so anyway so maybe look into it yourself.

 

[Cassia]

Ye shall no longer call me master but shall call me husband. The mastering of the world was complete in the golden age of Babylon, referred to as the king of kings. Lose of mastery came in stages with finally iron attempting to mix with clay.
The King of kings and the Lord of lords came forth as the redeemer and shepherd of the soul, a solid rock to build on, who's strength crushes the many into dust and makes one of His own.
God used one woman Tamar to bring in the scarlet thread in the line of Judah, one woman Hannah to inagurate the Nazarite, one woman Ruth to reconcile kinship, and one woman Mary to produce the promise in human form.
Eta and the woman Priscila to give the high priestly
interpretation.

 

[Cassia]

Matthew 26:64​

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you,​

From now on you will see the Son of Man​

seated at the right hand of Power​

and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

​

Daniel 7:13-14​

13 As I watched in the night visions,​

I saw one like a human being​

coming with the clouds of heaven.​

And he came to the Ancient One​

and was presented before him.​

14 To him was given dominion​

and glory and kingship,​

that all peoples, nations, and languages​

should serve him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion​

that shall not pass away,​

and his kingship is one​

that shall never be destroyed.​

At the Incarnation of Jesus, He laid aside His majesty to take on the form of a servant. The Son is always the manifestation of the Father. Whatever the form in the past, it's certain He was the Word, the Speech, the method of communication of the Eternal God.

For the redemption of mankind He has laid aside that form and taken on the form of a servant. The new form still manifests the same God, the form that mankind may look upon and thru the process of time come to know the Eternal God.

He is the Divine Expression , just as the Holy Spirit expresses the Divine consciousness. Thru these methods the limitlessness of God is brought into the range of the limited of mankind.

The Son brought the Father into sight at the incarnation. And following His death and resurrection the Spirit brings hearing to the consciousness.

The incarnation is a revelation - to mankind - of mankind and also as to the Divine intention. A revelation of God, for the perfect man (Jesus) is the image of God.

We find in Jesus God's revealed intention as to the purpose of every human being; - having a mind of royal and loyal love expressed in the activity of self-emptying service as the expression of loyalty.

In His example we can find His affectionate joy in the joys of His people, and sorrows in the midst of their sorrows.

This truth, too large for perfect comprehension, is yet recognized as the lines from the unique Personality of Jesus pointing into immensity. IOW Thru the man Jesus, mankind has found God.

Jesus of Nazareth is perfect in His humanity. That humanity is the cornerstone and if all it's lines are carried forth the whole fact will be included. Therefore it’s our duty and reasonable service to have the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ is submission to the dominion of Love yet reigning in the Power of Love.

Altho the light of the world has come into the world as the Expression of God bringing into view the true image of God, mankind doesn’t always see it because they have been blinded by the fall. In seeing they see not, hearing they hear not because the Consciousness of God has not reached their ears.

Something must be done to quicken the intelligence, to open the eye. That the Incarnation doesn't do. But it does provide the clear view of God for those who have a quickened intelligence. For them, the mortal has put on immortality. They have seen the Divine self-revelation contained within the Incarnation.

How? .... Reconciliation.

When mankind, thru the mystery of the atonement, is reconciled, and the miracle of regeneration is completed, then, in the Vision of God granted in Christ, will mankind be completely reconciled in intelligence, emotion and in their will.

The Incarnation has made the provision for the reconciliation of the whole man. But into this reconciliation man will only pass as he becomes reconciled to the death of Jesus Christ.


Worth repeating …. the purpose of every human being; - having a mind of royal and loyal love expressed in the activity of self-emptying service as the expression of loyalty.

 

[Albion]

​

At the Incarnation of Jesus, He laid aside His majesty to take on the form of a servant. The Son is always the manifestation of the Father. Whatever the form in the past, it's certain He was the Word, the Speech, the method of communication of the Eternal God.

Some confusing terminology in that post, but in case there is any question...The Son is not the manifestation of the Father. The persons of the Triune God have always existed and are not to be confused with each other.

 

[Cassia]

Some confusing terminology in that post, but in case there is any question...The Son is not the manifestation of the Father. The persons of the Triune God have always existed and are not to be confused with each other.

That is clear from the scripture reference that the Father and the Son are both present.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Jn 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world.

What does this mean?

Of divine not human origin!
Not natural but supernatural!
Not temporal but eternal!

Not of this world but in this world!
Both physical and spiritual!
Visible and invisible!

Only a Queen can bear a King!

Christ is King of Glory!

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, (acts 2:17 began at Pentecost) that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, (Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

And In the absence of the king we must submit and obey the kings ministers!

Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18
Lk 10:16
Jn 13:20
Jn 20:21-23

Example of Joseph under pharaoh administers the kingdom and his brothers obeyed and submitted to him. Gen 37

Gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Obedience to Joseph is obedience to pharaoh!

Obedience to Peter and the Apostles is obedience to Christ!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

The new covenant unity:
Union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and the saints is based on “unity of faith”

“Thee faith” of the new covenant that all must believe without any error, false or strange doctrines foreign to “thee faith” of the new covenant!

“Thee faith” is found 31 times in the New Testament!

Obedience of faith: rom 16:26

Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...

Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

One church founded by Jesus Christ!

there is only one!
One God!
One Lord!
One savior!
One faith!
One new covenant!
One kingdom!
One household of faith!
One vineyard!
One church! (Not thousands of sects All teaching different doctrines all on the Bible alone, by the tradition of men)
Only Christ has authority to found the new covenant church! Matt 16:18-19
One shepherd one fold Jn 10:16
1 Tim 3:15 pillar and ground of truth
All men must be taught by the church!

Truth is revealed by God, fully by Christ, and must be proposed for our belief by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 one faith

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

 

[Josiah]

It is undeniable that Christians tend to use terms variously - which can lead to a LOT of misunderstanding (and occasionally intentional abuse). Theologians, however, try to use the terms precisely - especially in discussions with those of different theological traditions.


CHURCH. (Invisible)

"The one, holy, catholic community of saints" as most Christians proclaim each Sunday. This is PEOPLE, the PEOPLE of God. ALL those to whom God has given the divine gifts of faith, spiritual life, justification (narrow) and the Holy Spirit. It is the entire corpus of such (both on earth and now in heaven). It is "invisible" in the sense that it is not a human/geopolical/legal/economic entity but is "visible" in the sense that faith among the faithful is observable. It is ONE (because we are one body, one family, brothers and sisters in Christ), united in our faith in CHRIST as THE (one, only, exclusive) Savior. It is HOLY because all in it are forgiven via that faith in that Savior. It is CATHOLIC because it embraces ALL believers everywhere and in every time, it is a communion because we are united into one spiritual entity.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 4:4
1 Peter 2:9
Romans 12:4
Ephesians 1:1
Luke 17:21



CONGREGATION/PARISH (visible)

A congregation is a gathering of Christian people in a given place and time. They gather together by their Lord's direction to worship, study, serve/minister, grow, support, love and hold each other accountable. They MAY put institutional aspects into place (name, constitution/by laws, articles of corporation, budgets, officers, property, etc.) so that that association has institutional aspects or simply may be Christians who gather in some living room. While the word "church" is often used for this too, it is NOT to be confused with THE Church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of saints: these associations are at most a tiny and current subset of THE Church. There are tens of millions of congregations in the world, very few last more than a century so they tend to have a beginning and an end. It is NOT divinely mandated that all Christians associate into some congregation/parish, but many do and many believe this is a good thing but there are hundreds of millions of "non-congregational" Christians.

Galatians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Revelation 1:4
1 Corinthians 1:2



DENOMINATION


At times, a group of congregations MAY choose to associate together - forming an institution of them, an association of congregations.
"Denomination" is to "parish" as "parish" is to "individual Christian"

This USUALLY is a formal institution - but it can at times simply refer to a common creed among congregations (as in "the Lutheran denomination" - there actually are over 300 Lutheran denomination institutions, but theoretically, most share a common creed, the Lutheran Confessions). These congregations associate together into denominations for similar reasons that Christians associate into congregations: for the purposes of mutual edification, ministry, support and accountability. Some of these are extremely "loose" (the "United Church of Christ" in the USA would be an example), the most radical forms are very strong they even may actually legally own and operate the member congregations (the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church USA are examples of very radical, extreme denominations). Examples would be "The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod" "The Greek Orthodox Church" "The United Reformed Church in America". There are thousands of denominations in the world currently, the largest (by far) being the Catholic Church although it is highly diversified into dioceses.

Congregations can be denominational (as most are) or non-denominational. Denominational ones are associated with other congregations - with a common formal statement of faith and often with some governance above and outside itself, whereas non-denominational ones are independent and autonomous. There is no divine mandate that a congregation be denominational (and millions aren't) but most are and most believe this is a benefit.

There are no Scriptures that mention this. Many hold that none clearly existed until the Roman Empire formed "The Roman Church" in the early 4th Century, created by itself for itself in the image of itself.


The term "Faith Community" is sometimes used for a group of congregations or individual Christians who share a common statement of faith or corpus of teachings (although not an institution) - thus "the Lutheran Faith Community" for any and all denominations, parishes or individuals who embrace the Lutheran Confessions, or "The Anglican Communion" for examples. Occasionally, "denomination" is used in this sense, too.



Some definitions:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.


From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: "A group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."


From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive doctrines."


From Allwords.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive teaching."


American Heritage Dictionary:
Denomination: "A large group of religious congregations united under a common official set of teachings and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."


Is The Catholic Church a denomination? It is unless one insists that it has no Catechism or beliefs, no official teachings, that is has no bishops or archbishops or cardinals or pope, that each priest is entirely autonomous, that each parish is absolutely independent and has nothing to do with ANY other parish.


Again, I don't deny that these words CAN be used in very sloppy and confusing ways, but it is clear there are these 3 very different aspects being addressed - even if some title is used.



- Josiah




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