What do you think about Jude quoting Enoch?

[Origen]

Then in verses 14 and 15, he quotes Enoch, word-for-word verbatim, as if he’s quoting holy scripture, fully expecting his audience to have read it too.

It is NOT word-for-word verbatim. Here are the Greek texts for both.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

In the pic below Green clearly outlines the differences between the two Greek texts.

The above was taken from Jude & 2 Peter: Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament by Gene L. Green p. 104 (Zondervan, 2008).

 

[Josiah]

You’re not the brother of Jesus.

There's ZERO reason to ASSUME that the author of the book we call "Jude" is either.

And obviously, that has ZERO relevance to the possible quote meaning ERGO the source is among the few inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God.

You’re not an apostle.

Nor are you.

There's ZERO reason to ASSUME that the author of the book we call "Jude" is either.

And obviously, that has ZERO relevance to the possible quote meaning ERGO the possible source is among the few inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God.

He mentions events from Exodus, then events from Enoch, then events from Genesis.

He’s got Enoch sandwiched right in between Genesis and Exodus. It’s like an Enoch sandwich. And he expected his audience to have read it.

I. -Verse 5, he mentions the Red Sea crossing (from Exodus)

II. -Verse 6 he mentions the angels sinning and being chained in darkness (from Enoch)

III. -Then verse 7 he mentions Sodom and Gomorrah (from Genesis).

So.... everyone who mentions anything in Genesis and the Exodus and Sodom is ergo a son of Mary, an Apostle, the author of a NT book and any source he MAY have used is ergo part of the collection of inerrant, fully/equally canonical , divinely-inscripturated words of God.

Do you ever stop to realize how absurd, how silly, how laughable your points are?




.

 

[NathanH83]

There's ZERO reason to ASSUME that the author of the book we call "Jude" is either.

And obviously, that has ZERO relevance to the possible quote meaning ERGO the source is among the few inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God.






Nor are you.

There's ZERO reason to ASSUME that the author of the book we call "Jude" is either.

And obviously, that has ZERO relevance to the possible quote meaning ERGO the possible source is among the few inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God.






So.... everyone who mentions anything in Genesis and the Exodus and Sodom is ergo a son of Mary, an Apostle, the author of a NT book and any source he MAY have used is ergo part of the collection of inerrant, fully/equally canonical , divinely-inscripturated words of God.

Do you ever stop to realize how absurd, how silly, how laughable your points are?




.

What is a ERGO?
What is a TOME?

 

[NathanH83]

Really no different at all. Some words of Scripture record historical events. That doesn't mean we are called to copy the historical events, merely that they happened. Other words of Scripture are clear mandates and prohibitions. You're trying to imply that the presence of something in a book makes it equivalent to everything else in the same book. It doesn't work that way.

If Jude expected his audience to have read Enoch (which is a bit of an assumption in itself) that doesn't mean he regarded it as being divinely inspired. I've been known to quote lyrics from secular music when I preach but that doesn't mean I consider secular music to be equivalent to Scripture, I just use them to make a point. Depending on the context when I'm talking to people I might expect them to be familiar with aspects of modern culture that are nothing to do with Scripture.

You're still assuming that a mention of something makes it divinely inspired. You can't get there from here.

I’m sorry. Is that supposed to be a convincing argument?

 

[tango]

I’m sorry. Is that supposed to be a convincing argument?

If you find it so unconvincing you could always try, you know, actually addressing it. Just a thought.

 

[NathanH83]

If you find it so unconvincing you could always try, you know, actually addressing it. Just a thought.

I already said what I wanted to say.
Jude sandwiches the events in Enoch right between the events in Genesis and Exodus.

When I went to school, we learned about context. The context implies that Jude considered Enoch to be scripture.

Your argument is weak.

 

[Bluezone777]

I don't see anything that outright says that Jude though the book of Enoch was scripture and any claim to that effect in my eyes seems to be strictly speculation and reading into the text to have it say things it simply doesn't outright say. If God wanted it to say that in His Word then he would have said it plainly as He never gave me any indication He was ever interested in man's opinion and speculation on anything.

 

[tango]

I already said what I wanted to say.
Jude sandwiches the events in Enoch right between the events in Genesis and Exodus.

When I went to school, we learned about context. The context implies that Jude considered Enoch to be scripture.

Your argument is weak.

Do you actually understand what context is?

If I quote a verse of Scripture, then a few lines of Moby DIck, then a verse of Scripture, does that mean I consider Moby Dick to be Scripture? Unless your answer is affirmative your entire argument falls apart. But apparently my argument is weak. So be it, I guess.

You could mix and match all you want, like the sermon I've got planned for a couple of weeks time where I mix and match between quoting Scripture, a couple of preachers, and some song lyrics. Scripture is Scripture, the words I borrowed from preachers are things I consider relevant to the point even if not divinely inspired, and the song lyrics help make the point without making any claim to be even remotely inspired from above.

Claiming that saying two different things means the two different things are equal in status is among the weakest arguments I've seen on here. But if you really want to believe it I can't stop you, it just means things derived from it won't make any sense.

 

[NathanH83]

I don't see anything that outright says that Jude though the book of Enoch was scripture and any claim to that effect in my eyes seems to be strictly speculation and reading into the text to have it say things it simply doesn't outright say. If God wanted it to say that in His Word then he would have said it plainly as He never gave me any indication He was ever interested in man's opinion and speculation on anything.

Weak argument.

Jude quotes Enoch.

That quote is found in the book of Enoch, NOT in the Old Testament anywhere.

Suggesting that Jude did not accept the book of Enoch is more speculative than suspecting he did accept it.

 

[NathanH83]

Do you actually understand what context is?

If I quote a verse of Scripture, then a few lines of Moby DIck, then a verse of Scripture, does that mean I consider Moby Dick to be Scripture? Unless your answer is affirmative your entire argument falls apart. But apparently my argument is weak. So be it, I guess.

You could mix and match all you want, like the sermon I've got planned for a couple of weeks time where I mix and match between quoting Scripture, a couple of preachers, and some song lyrics. Scripture is Scripture, the words I borrowed from preachers are things I consider relevant to the point even if not divinely inspired, and the song lyrics help make the point without making any claim to be even remotely inspired from above.

Claiming that saying two different things means the two different things are equal in status is among the weakest arguments I've seen on here. But if you really want to believe it I can't stop you, it just means things derived from it won't make any sense.

Yea, saying that the reference to Enoch is “just fiction” but the stuff around it is scripture…. That’s cherry picking, bro.


Imagine if I said to you:

“Remember in the scriptures, when Moses encountered God at the burning bush, and when Peter Pevensie encountered Aslan in the land of Narnia, or when Jacob wrestled with God on his way to meet Esau…”


Anyone who says something like that clearly has difficulty distinguishing reality from fiction. And I am NOT going to suggest that Jude was delusional.

 

[Josiah]

Jude quotes Enoch.

PERHAPS. So what? Even if true, the MOST we therefore can conclude is that the unknown author was aware of that writing. That's the MOST that can possibly be concluded from that. And if your pastor tomorrow quotes from an article in People Magazine during his sermon, the MOST we can possibly conclude from that is that your pastor is aware of that edition of People Magazine.

But what we get from you are AMAZING, incredible, baseless, illogical, thoughtless and often amusing leaps.... so huge as to just boggle the mind how anyone could possibly mean to be taken seriously, And of course, we are always left wondering "could he possibly have a point?" I've stopped asking you if you have a point because you never reply to the question.


The people of CH are extremely patient and generous... and trying (hard!) to help you THINK. I have no clue where you are getting this stuff (heaven knows the internet is fulled with absurd junk) but YOU are copying it here. We are TRYING to help you evaluate rather than just repeat.




.

 

[atpollard]

Depends on how you quote it.
It also makes a big difference when you’re Jesus’ brother.

Jesus had no ”brothers” ... God was his father and Mary is an eternal Virgin (ask Josiah and the RCC). [troublemaker]

 

[atpollard]

Did Jude accept the book of Enoch as scripture?

No.

 

[Origen]

The context implies that Jude considered Enoch to be scripture.

Suggesting that Jude did not accept the book of Enoch is more speculative than suspecting he did accept it.

You had better get word to the councils Hippo and Carthage about Jude because they don't list 1 Enoch as canonical.


If Jude did accept it as canonical, as you seem to be claiming, then it follows that Hippo and Carthage canon list is wrong.

If the councils Hippo and Carthage set the canon, as you have claimed, then Jude is wrong.

 

[atpollard]

Joshua 8:31 [NKJV]
as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses: "an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron [tool]." And they offered on it burnt offerings to the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

• Joshua accepted Deuteronomy 27:5-6 as scripture

Matthew 4:4, 7, 10 [NKJV]
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " ...
7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' " ...
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "

• Jesus accepted Deuteronomy as scripture.

Matthew 11:10 [NKJV]
10 "For this is [he] of whom it is written: 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.'

• Jesus accepted Malachi as scripture.

Matthew 21:13 [NKJV] 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

• Jesus accepted Jeremiah as scripture.

Matthew 26:31 [NKJV]
31 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

• Jesus accepted Zechariah as scripture.

Acts 1:20 [NKJV]
20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'

• Luke accepted Psalms as scripture.

Acts 7:42-43 [NKJV]
42 "Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices [during] forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? 43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Images which you made to worship; And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.'

• Luke accepted Amos as scripture.

Acts 23:5 [NKJV]
5 Then Paul said, "I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.' "

• Paul accepted Exodus as scripture.

Romans 1:17 [NKJV]
it is written17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

• Paul accepted Habakuk as scripture.

Romans 2:24 [NKJV]
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

• Paul accepted Isaiah and Ezekiel as scripture.

Romans 3:4 [NKJV]
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

• Paul accepted Psalms as scripture.

Romans 3:10-18 [NKJV]
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat [is] an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps [is] under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet [are] swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

• Paul accepted Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Isaiah as scripture.
  

Romans 4:17 [NKJV]
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

• Paul accepted Genesis as scripture.

Romans 9:13 [NKJV]
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

• Paul accepted Malachi as scripture.

Romans 10:15 [NKJV]
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

• Paul accepted Isaiah and Nahum as scripture.

Romans 11:8 [NKJV]
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."

• Paul accepted Deuteronomy and Isaiah as scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:31 [NKJV]
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

• Paul accepted Jeremiah as scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:19 [NKJV]
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their [own] craftiness";

• Paul accepted Job as scripture.

1 Peter 1:16 [NKJV]
16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

• Peter accepted Leviticus as scripture.

John 13:18 [NKJV]
18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

• Jesus CALLED the Psalms scripture.

1 Timothy 5:18 [NKJV]
18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages."

• Paul CALLED the Deuteronomy and Luke scripture.

James 2:8 [NKJV]
8 If you really fulfill [the] royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;

• James CALLED the Leviticus scripture.

James 2:23 [NKJV]
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

• James CALLED the Genesis scripture.

2 Peter 3:14-16 [NKJV]
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures.

• Peter CALLED the the letters of Paul scripture.

Does Jude quote Enoch as Scripture (“it is written”) or actually state that Enoch is ”Scripture”?
Can you see the difference?

 

[Josiah]

Joshua 8:31 [NKJV]
as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses: "an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron [tool]." And they offered on it burnt offerings to the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

• Joshua accepted Deuteronomy 27:5-6 as scripture

Matthew 4:4, 7, 10 [NKJV]
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " ...
7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' " ...
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "

• Jesus accepted Deuteronomy as scripture.

Matthew 11:10 [NKJV]
10 "For this is [he] of whom it is written: 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.'

• Jesus accepted Malachi as scripture.

Matthew 21:13 [NKJV] 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

• Jesus accepted Jeremiah as scripture.

Matthew 26:31 [NKJV]
31 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

• Jesus accepted Zechariah as scripture.

Acts 1:20 [NKJV]
20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'

• Luke accepted Psalms as scripture.

Acts 7:42-43 [NKJV]
42 "Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices [during] forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? 43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Images which you made to worship; And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.'

• Luke accepted Amos as scripture.

Acts 23:5 [NKJV]
5 Then Paul said, "I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.' "

• Paul accepted Exodus as scripture.

Romans 1:17 [NKJV]
it is written17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

• Paul accepted Habakuk as scripture.

Romans 2:24 [NKJV]
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

• Paul accepted Isaiah and Ezekiel as scripture.

Romans 3:4 [NKJV]
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

• Paul accepted Psalms as scripture.

Romans 3:10-18 [NKJV]
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat [is] an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps [is] under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet [are] swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

• Paul accepted Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Isaiah as scripture.

Romans 4:17 [NKJV]
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

• Paul accepted Genesis as scripture.

Romans 9:13 [NKJV]
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

• Paul accepted Malachi as scripture.

Romans 10:15 [NKJV]
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

• Paul accepted Isaiah and Nahum as scripture.

Romans 11:8 [NKJV]
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."

• Paul accepted Deuteronomy and Isaiah as scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:31 [NKJV]
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

• Paul accepted Jeremiah as scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:19 [NKJV]
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their [own] craftiness";

• Paul accepted Job as scripture.

1 Peter 1:16 [NKJV]
16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

• Peter accepted Leviticus as scripture.

John 13:18 [NKJV]
18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

• Jesus CALLED the Psalms scripture.

1 Timothy 5:18 [NKJV]
18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages."

• Paul CALLED the Deuteronomy and Luke scripture.

James 2:8 [NKJV]
8 If you really fulfill [the] royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;

• James CALLED the Leviticus scripture.

James 2:23 [NKJV]
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

• James CALLED the Genesis scripture.

2 Peter 3:14-16 [NKJV]
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures.

• Peter CALLED the the letters of Paul scripture.

Does Jude quote Enoch as Scripture (“it is written”) or actually state that Enoch is ”Scripture”?
Can you see the difference?

atpollard


Excellent work



.

 

[atpollard]

What is a ERGO?

Latin for “therefore”

Ergo: for that reason : because of that : THEREFORE, HENCE (Merriam-Webster)

• … there is no sound, ergo, no speed of sound, in the vacuum of space.— Stephan Wilkinson

 

[atpollard]

What is a TOME?

Tome: BOOK (Merriam-Webster)

• especially : a large or scholarly book

 

[atpollard]

So what does Jude actually write:

Jude 1:14-15 [NKJV]
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."


“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied ...”

• Jude is not speaking of the book, but of the person.
• Enoch, the seventh from Adam, is a specific individual. The book of Enoch is not the “seventh from Adam”.
• Assuming that Jude is inspired (which I am prepared to accept as a given), then Jude does affirm two things:
  • Enoch (the person) was a prophet (he made a prophecy)
  • Jude is about to affirm that the prophecy which he is about to quote (made by Enoch) is a true prophecy.

"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

• THIS is the prophecy of Enoch according to Jude.
• This prophecy is true (according to Jude).
• If this prophecy appears in the Book of Enoch, then the Book of Enoch contains at least one correct prophecy from Enoch.
• If the prophecy in the Book of Enoch disagrees with this prophecy in any details, then the Book of Enoch contains the error. (We have accepted the inspiration of Jude as a ’given’).

Since Jude was as Jewish as Jesus, Peter, or Paul, he would have been familiar with the use of the phrase “it is written” and “as Scripture” to denote the quoting of Holy Scripture.

• Jude could have read the Book of Enoch and been familiar with the prophecy from there.
• Jude chose to acknowledge the prophecy and the person of Enoch while choosing to avoid acknowledging it as a quote from Scripture.
• We cannot conclude that Jude accepted the Book of Enoch as Scripture since he deliberately chose not to acknowledge it as scripture.
• We can only conclude that the prophecy itself is both from the man called Enoch and is Scripture (through the Book of Jude).

 

[tango]

Yea, saying that the reference to Enoch is “just fiction” but the stuff around it is scripture…. That’s cherry picking, bro.


Imagine if I said to you:

“Remember in the scriptures, when Moses encountered God at the burning bush, and when Peter Pevensie encountered Aslan in the land of Narnia, or when Jacob wrestled with God on his way to meet Esau…”


Anyone who says something like that clearly has difficulty distinguishing reality from fiction. And I am NOT going to suggest that Jude was delusional.

Except that's not what I'm saying at all.

The fact something is quoted near Scripture doesn't mean it's Scripture, and noting this doesn't mean it's automatically pure fiction. You know, there are thousands of textbooks out there that quote pure truth and not a single one of them is divinely inspired. I can look up from my desk and see a whole bunch of technical reference manuals that give me information on anything from how to dismantle and rebuild my car's engine to how to frame a room to code requirements when doing electrical work and so on. Every single one of them is filled with truth. Not a single one is fiction, and not a single one contains words breathed by God. And then I've got a bunch of fictional books - novels, short stories, fables and the like. None of them are breathed by God and none of them contain a whole lot of truth.

Is it really so difficult to accept that I can quote from Scripture, from technical reference books and from fictional novels without regarding them as in any way equal?

In a theological context I might quote Scripture to make a point and then use an analogy to illustrate the point. An example there is that in one of my sermons I talked about God's forgiveness lifting our sins as if they were washed away and had never happened, and used an illustration of walking along the beach as the tide came in. The tide washes away footprints as if they were never there, much like God forgives sin as if it never happened. My analogy wasn't divinely inspired, it was my own thought. The Scripture I referenced was divinely inspired. The two sit together.

One time I was talking to a friend and used a couple of examples from the major arcana of the Rider-Waite tarot deck to make a theological point, drawing parallels from Scripture. Does this mean I think the tarot is the same as Scripture?