In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

Origen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
817
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It sounds to me that Jerome wanted to exclude the books that he called apocrypha, because the Jews told him that these books don’t belong.
There is zero evidence Jerome wanted to exclude them simply "because the Jews told him that these books don’t belong."

apparently because they had reason to believe the council of Nicaea accepted those books as scripture.
You are fabricating events for which there is NO historical support. No church father makes such a claim, and we have many witnesses\sources on the council of Nicaea.

Jerome probably said that the Nicene Council accepted Judith because the church authorities told him that.
There is zero evidence for your claim. Jerome never made that claim nor does any other church father.

And they probably had good reason to believe that, as they probably had access to more documentation than we do.
Again you have zero evidence. However we do have many witnesses\sources on the council of Nicaea and none of them mention it.

Then after the 3 councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage the people who wanted these books taken out calmed down and accepted church authority
Even after Hippo and Carthage many rejected them as canonical.

You have done nothing more than concocted a fantasy.
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
2 Esdras is also pretty amazing in the way it points to the Messiah
 

Origen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
817
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You don’t have any evidence of your own to counteract these things.
No reason to refute something that has no evidence to support it. Your claims are pure fantasy without s shed of historical support.

You haven’t shown any evidence disproving this.
No one has to disprove something for which there is zero evidence. All you have are your make-believe stories.
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
There is zero evidence Jerome wanted to exclude them simply "because the Jews told him that these books don’t belong."


You are fabricating events for which there is NO historical support. No church father makes such a claim, and we have many witnesses\sources on the council of Nicaea.


There is zero evidence for your claim. Jerome never made that claim nor does any other church father.


Again you have zero evidence. However we do have many witnesses\sources on the council of Nicaea and none of them mention it.


Even after Hippo and Carthage many rejected them as canonical.

You have done nothing more than concocted a fantasy.

 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Wisdom Chapter 2?
Citing the source written mid first century doesn't point to an event that has already happened.
Its only a record admission of a future event proving denial of Messiah Yeshua by its contemporary writing.
 
Last edited:

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Citing the source written mid first century doesn't point to an event that has already happened.
Its only a record admission of a future event proving denial of Messiah Yeshua by its contemporary writing.
Mid first century BC
 

Joshua1Eight

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
155
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think it's ridiculous how Protestants throw out these books using Martin Luther's views, or claim the Jews exclusively have the right Scriptures. You're going to follow one man's subjective feelings and personal preferences over centuries of acceptance of these books by the Church which was founded by Christ and which is guided by the Holy Spirit? Or you're going to follow anti-Christians who wanted to undermine Christ in the Old Testament over Jesus's Church guided by the Holy Spirit? If you're going to follow Luther, then be consistent and throw out New Testament books too, such as James and Revelation. If you're going to follow the Jewish canon, be consistent and throw out the entire New Testament. Then after throwing out the deuterocanonical books, the Protestants make excuses to justify it after the fact about how the content is totally un-Christian, even though these books point toward Christ, and there are similar things to what they're complaining about in the books they do accept. Just maddening. The same Church which canonized the books they accept also canonized the books they reject. Maybe, just maybe, they're worth reading.
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
We all know what it says but it does nothing to support your spurious claims.

Jerome just said it for no reason with nothing causing him to think that?

I mean, this is basic common sense. If 3 councils in the 380’s and 390’s declared Judith and the rest of the apocryphal books to be divine canonical scripture, and Jerome says that the Nicene council decided that Judith is holy scripture, then it kind of makes it seem like the men at the council of Nicaea probably accepted these books as scripture. With the exception of Athanasius who specifically said he believes otherwise.

I mean, it’s not that hard to figure out. But if someone was to claim that ZERO of the attendees at the Nicene council accepted these books as scripture, that would be very far-fetched.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think it's ridiculous how Protestants throw out these books

Protestants have not throw anything out of anything. This sweeping generalization about perhaps one billion people over 500 years is absurd and entirely unsubstantiated.

And you evidently don't know that a great percentage of Protestants are and have been Lutherans and Anglicans.... and if you've read the 39 Articles of the Church of England you'll see a lot MORE books mentioned there than in your post-Trent Roman Catholic tome.... and if you ever saw Luther's translation of the Bible, it has more MORE deuterocanonical book in it than your modern Catholic one (the only book he removed was the Epistle to the Leodiceans, that book commonly found in Catholic tomes in his day is not found in Luther's). TRUE, Luther personally held that these deutercanonical books were thus deuterocanonical, but that was his personal opinion, one that Lutheranism never officially embraced. And true the Church of England officially declared that it's set of deuterocanonical books (much larger than the Catholic Church's) are deuterocanonical, but it never deleted them from the 39 Articles or threw them out (although few publishing houses in England still include them since customers no longer desire to by books with them in).



using Martin Luther's views,

John Calvin (not Martin Luther) had the view that these books should be removed from the Bible (Luther INCLUDED one more than your Catholic tome, the Anglican Church has a LOT more than your modern Catholic tome). Luther's continuing of the view that deuterocanonical books are deuterocanonical was nothing new and again, the ONLY book commonly found in tomes of the Catholic Church in his day that he "threw out" was the Epistle to the Leodiceans, and NOT because he had any view on it but because he simply never translated it.

The only Reformation church that said deuterocanonical books are not canonical at all was the Reformed Church, fallowing John Calvin. In its Westminster Confession, it embraces only 66 books. It officially declared the Scriptures to consist ONLY of those books. The Lutheran Church has never said that (our Confessions are silent on this point), and the Church of England embraces a lot more books than the Catholic Church does.

The issue you are missing is the issue of canonicity, not just inclusion in a tome. The idea that ALL books are EQUALLY canonical is a very new one, and one your denomination has NEVER officially declared. In my Catholic days, we were told that the Old Testament is to be viewed in light of the New.... thus the Old is less canonical/normative than the New, to be viewed submissive to the New. Two levels of canonicity/normative function.



You're going to follow one man's subjective feelings


You are going to follow one denomination's individual decision. And that's fine. But of course it's UNIQUE. Catholics today share the Bible with no other church on Earth.... and the difference is those deuterocanonical books. Books that when I was a Catholic were never mentioned, never used (canonically or at all).... a FEW readings were in the lectionary, but that's it (they are in some Lutheran and Anglican lectionaries, too). It was not until I became Lutheran that ANYONE encouraged me to read them... until there was an extensive study at church offered on them. In my experience, Lutherans take these books (one more than you have) far more seriously than Catholics do, in my personal experience.



Then after throwing out the deuterocanonical books,


Protestants did nothing.

The Church of England officially.... and Luther by his own individual personal opinion (never adopted by Lutheranism) embraced the deuterocanonical books as deuterocanonical books... both of them accepting MORE of them than you do.

Your "beef" is with John Calvin and modern American "Evangelicalism."



The same Church which canonized the books


AT the Council of Florence or the Council of Trent, your denomination officially embraced its own UNIQUE collection, only for its own self. It did not act for all Christianity and not one other church EVER followed it on this as is proven because NO other church has EVER had the collection that the Catholic Church does now.... not the Greek Orthodox, not the Russian Orthodox, not the Armenian Orthodox, not the Syrian Orthodox, not the Coptic Orthodox... not the Anglican Church.... not ONE other church on the planet in 2000 years has had the same collection as the RCC does now NONE. EVER. The Catholic Church stands all alone, all by itself on this matter. You of course can BELIEVE the Holy Spirit led just your one church.... and Calvinists can BELIEVE the Holy Spirit only lead that church... and neither of you have any evidence for such but of course do have your belief. But clearly the Holy Spirit could NOT have lead all Christianity because never has all Christianity had the same collection. And of course, even if they did it would not mean they accept all of them with the same canonicity - as having equal normative value and function.





.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Jerome just said it for no reason with nothing causing him to think that?

If I said there may be life on Mars, I might have a reason for saying so but it doesn't make it true.

Not only do you totally confuse your own opinions with fact, you do that with others if they agree with you on a point.

You have NO evidence that any Jew told Jerome anything....
You have NO evidence that any opinion of this one man is thus fact...
You have NO evidence that anyone at the Council of Nicea discussed what is and is not Scripture or any function thereof.
You are just making this all up. You admit to assuming and guessing.

This we KNOW. The Council of Nicea did NOTHING in this regard. NOTHING. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. None of the 7 Ecumenical Councils did. Individuals had their opinions.... individual dioceses sometimes did things for that diocese... in time, a handful of denominations officially decided things (the Church of England, the Catholic Church, the Reformed Church, the LDS Church) but CHRISTIANITY never did anything about this (witness the great many DIFFERENT Bibles we have), and PROTESTANTISM never did anything about this (there is no Ruling Body CAPABLE of doing anything about this, Protestantism could not do anything about this if it wanted to, it has no means to do it).





.




.


 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
The Jews are the ones who added these books to the Bible in the centuries BEFORE the time of Christ. They’re Jewish books, not Catholic books. THEY created the Greek Septuagint. That’s why the very first Christians accepted them.

But AFTER the time of Christ, the Jewish rabbis took them out, and rejected the Greek Septuagint, while Christians still used the Septuagint and had still had them in their copies.

Throughout the years, some Christians wanted to follow the smaller Bible used by the Jews, and some Christians wanted to follow the larger Bible that was handed down to them by the early church. That’s why there has been such confusion and division in the church over this issue.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I wonder by what other means other than the greek Septuagint did these unusual uninspired books pop up in the Christian bible to begin with?
3cdf605c9fb73b1721abee4c2d92abe3.jpg
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Seems the thread has veered off topic quite awhile now.

From the the amount of apocrypha I've read I don't recall any of them pointing to Messiah

You’re right. It has veered off topic.

Some of the most amazing and clearest Messianic prophecies I’ve ever read are in the book of 2 Esdras.

Have you read it? It’s really cool.

I made a video showing it:

 

TonyC7

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Don't be fooled by this, people! This entire argument is flawed, and an astute observer can catch onto Nathan's error in the first few paragraphs. He ASSUMES without evidence (and DESPITE CONTRARY EVIDENCE) that the Apocryphal books were considered canonical inspired writings by the ancient Jews just because they are included at the end of the Septuagint. The truth is that the Jews NEVER considered the Apocryphal books as "inspired writings." This is verified by the ancient Jewish/Roman historian Josephus who lived around the time of Christ. Josephus is a Jewish observer who recorded the generally agreed upon sentiment of the Jews at his time and in the past. Despite this early contemporaneous EVIDENCE, Nathan rejects this and instead embraces the views of later church councils that were convened once heresy was mainstreamed in the church and the Catholic system was taking over. Nathan knows Josephus checkmates his views so he calls Josephus an "unbelieving Jew" who he thinks for some reason is revising history and is biased against the Apocrypha. Yet, Nathan never defends or proves these made-up ideas of his. The Apocrypha has nothing to do with Jesus and is totally besides the point here. Unfortunately, Nathan venerates the teachings of David Bercot over the evidence. And he apparently has somehow come to the conclusion that in order to value to Septuagint, one has to accept the Apocrypha as inspired (even though the Jews and earliest Christians never did).
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You’re right. It has veered off topic.

Some of the most amazing and clearest Messianic prophecies I’ve ever read are in the book of 2 Esdras.

Have you read it? It’s really cool.

I made a video showing it:

Enough with video marketing.
Show your works.
Where and when did the fictional 2nd esdras mention a salvation to come?
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Don't be fooled by this, people! This entire argument is flawed, and an astute observer can catch onto Nathan's error in the first few paragraphs. He ASSUMES without evidence (and DESPITE CONTRARY EVIDENCE) that the Apocryphal books were considered canonical inspired writings by the ancient Jews just because they are included at the end of the Septuagint. The truth is that the Jews NEVER considered the Apocryphal books as "inspired writings." This is verified by the ancient Jewish/Roman historian Josephus who lived around the time of Christ. Josephus is a Jewish observer who recorded the generally agreed upon sentiment of the Jews at his time and in the past. Despite this early contemporaneous EVIDENCE, Nathan rejects this and instead embraces the views of later church councils that were convened once heresy was mainstreamed in the church and the Catholic system was taking over. Nathan knows Josephus checkmates his views so he calls Josephus an "unbelieving Jew" who he thinks for some reason is revising history and is biased against the Apocrypha. Yet, Nathan never defends or proves these made-up ideas of his. The Apocrypha has nothing to do with Jesus and is totally besides the point here. Unfortunately, Nathan venerates the teachings of David Bercot over the evidence. And he apparently has somehow come to the conclusion that in order to value to Septuagint, one has to accept the Apocrypha as inspired (even though the Jews and earliest Christians never did).
Josephus is a fraud
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Enough with video marketing.
Show your works.
Where and when did the fictional 2nd esdras mention a salvation to come?

I can’t remember off the top of my head. I think it was in chapter 7. I showed it in the video.
 
Top Bottom