What year was it when Protestants first started to remove books from the Holy Bible?

[Origen]

I wasn’t in attendance at the high school graduation.

I mean, I was there in the gymnasium where the graduation was taking place. I greeted and spoke with some of the graduates.

Your irrelevant example in no way addresses what I said.

I said the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact. Let's look at the Greek text and see if those verbs are there.

Εγένετο τότε τὰ ἐγκαίνια ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις, καὶ χειμὼν ἦν· καὶ ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐν τῇ στοᾷ Σολομῶνος. Ἐκύκλωσαν οὖν αὐτὸν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, καὶ ἔλεγον αὐτῷ, Ἕως πότε τὴν ψυχὴν ἡμῶν αἴρεις; Εἰ σὺ εἶ ὁ χριστός, εἰπὲ ἡμῖν παρρησίᾳ.

Not there either. There are no verbs which can be translated "celebrate" or "attend." In fact Jesus is the subject of only one verb in the above passage and that is περιεπάτει (i.e. was walking, walked).

 

[RichWh1]

The question that needs to be asked is -Why did John mention the Feast of Dedication in his gospel?
Answer that and you might be able to know why Jesus went up to Jerusalem at that time.


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[Andrew]

Focus on what I said. I said the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact.

Going into the Holy Temple as a High Priest and Preaching during the Dedication feasts (Like how church goers attend Church on Christmas or Easter) is basically an example of the definition of attendence

at·tend·ance

/əˈtendəns/

noun

the action or state of going regularly to or being present at a place or event.

"my attendance at church was very irregular"

Every year in winter for 8 days Jews celebrate Hanuka (english-dedication)

Celebration is the opposite of a mourning and this event was a joyous event!

Attended and Celebration are not in the verse but once you add 2 and 2 you get 4, Jesus was Jewish he did Jewish things

 

[Andrew]

The question that needs to be asked is -Why did John mention the Feast of Dedication in his gospel?
Answer that and you might be able to know why Jesus went up to Jerusalem at that time.


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To preach and declare himself THE Light of the World (basically saying that He took the israelites out of Egypt and guided them to the promised land, the Jews would later make pilgrimage to the Temple during the feasts

 

[NathanH83]

Your irrelevant example in no way addresses what I said.

I said the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact. Let's look at the Greek text and see if those verbs are there.

Εγένετο τότε τὰ ἐγκαίνια ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις, καὶ χειμὼν ἦν· καὶ ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐν τῇ στοᾷ Σολομῶνος. Ἐκύκλωσαν οὖν αὐτὸν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, καὶ ἔλεγον αὐτῷ, Ἕως πότε τὴν ψυχὴν ἡμῶν αἴρεις; Εἰ σὺ εἶ ὁ χριστός, εἰπὲ ἡμῖν παρρησίᾳ.

Not there either. There are no verbs which can be translated "celebrate" or "attend." In fact Jesus is the subject of only one verb in the above passage and that is περιεπάτει (i.e. was walking, walked).

And?

If you are attending something, then you are present.
Jesus was present.

1 + 1 = 2


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[NathanH83]

The question that needs to be asked is -Why did John mention the Feast of Dedication in his gospel?
Answer that and you might be able to know why Jesus went up to Jerusalem at that time.


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Finally someone who wants to have a meaningful conversation. Thank you.

Yes, this is a good question. John didn’t have to mention the fact they were at this feast. Why was it important to the message of this chapter, or this gospel?
Good question.


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[pinacled]

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, Jesus was set on going to the feast but he did not want his disciples to know when he would arrive nor did he want them to recognize him.
My mistake.

Point is, Jesus attended the feast and not to condemn it but to preach!

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him. Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews. Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
John 7:1-14

Do you recall the lesson of "strange fire"?

 

[Andrew]

I invited seven special guests to our conversation, they are rather old so please be kind and treat them with the same manner of respect as you would your own grandparents...

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Clement of Alexandria The Instructor (Paedagogus) book 2 ch 3 (150-215 ad)
“Excellently, therefore, the Divine Scripture, addressing boasters and lovers of their own selves, says…[quotes Baruch 3:16-19]"

Origen de Principiis book 2 ch 1.5 (185- 254ad)
"But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, "I ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist"

Cyprian of Carthage Letter 80.6 (200-270 ad)
“And again, where the sacred Scripture speaks of the tortures which consecrate God's martyrs, and sanctify them in the very trial of suffering:… [quotes Wisdom 3:4-8].”

Cyprian of Carthage Letter, 54.3 (200-270 ad)
“…since Holy Scripture meets and warns us, saying…[quotes Hab. 2:5].And again…[quotes 1 Maccabees 2:62-63] And again: [quotes Psalm 38:35, 36].
Cyprian of Carthage On the Dress of Virgins, 10 (200-270 ad)
“since Holy Scripture says…[quotes Wisdom 5:8].

Cyprian of Carthage On Mortality, 9 (200-270 ad)
“Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying…[quotes Sirach 2:1-5].”

Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 8 par 2 (200-270 ad)
"The Holy Spirit speaks in the sacred Scriptures, and says, "By almsgiving and faith sins are purged." (Tobit 12:9)

Cyprian of Carthage Letter 61.1 (200-270 ad)
"Concerning which matters, since you have desired our advice, know that we do not depart from the traditions of the Gospel and of the apostles, but with constancy and firmness take counsel for our brethren and sisters, and maintain the discipline of the Church by all the ways of usefulness and safety, since the Lord speaks, saying…[Jer. 3:15] And again it is written; [Wisdom 3:11]; and in the Psalms also the Holy Spirit admonishes and instructs us, saying…[quotes Psalms 2:12 [LXX]]."

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor (Paedagogus) book 2 ch 5 (150-215 ad)
“A fool raises his voice in laughter," says the Scripture; but a clever man smiles almost imperceptibly.” (Quoting Sirach 21:20)

Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 2 ch23 (150-215 ad)
"Those, then, will not escape the curse of yoking an ass with an ox, who, judging certain things not to suit them, command others to do them, or the reverse. This Scripture has briefly showed, when it says …[quotes Tobit 4.15].

Athanasius Against the Heathen par 9.4 (296-373 ad)
"According as the wisdom of God testifies beforehand when it says, "The devising of idols was the beginning of fornication." (Wis 14:12)

Tertullian Scorpian’s Antedote ch 8 (160-240 ad)
"For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: [quotes Baruch 6:3-5]"

Epistle of Barnabas Ch 6 (70-90 ad)
"For the prophet speaks against Israel, themselves, saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us." (Wisdom 2:12)

Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew: 71 (100-165 ad)
"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, `Behold, the virgin shall conceive, 'and say it ought to be read, `Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."

 

[Origen]

Going into the Holy Temple as a High Priest and Preaching during the Dedication feasts (Like how church goers attend Church on Christmas or Easter) is basically an example of the definition of attendence

No matter what you claim the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact beyond dispute.

 

[Origen]

If you are attending something, then you are present.

Twist it all you want. No matter what you claim the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact. It is just not there.

 

[NathanH83]

Twist it all you want. No matter what you claim the text NEVER uses the words "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. That is a fact. It is just not there.

You are the one twisting it.
Are you saying Jesus was not in attendance? Isn’t the definition of attending something to be present?

You’re all about word games. It’s impossible to have a meaningful conversation with you.

 

[Origen]

You are the one twisting it.

Then show everyone where the text states "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. Oh that's right you can't because it doesn't.

Are you saying Jesus was not in attendance?

I am saying the text NEVER states "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything.

You’re all about word games.

No word games here only the fact that the WORDS "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything are NOT found in the text.

 

[Josiah]

John 10:22 clearly says that Jesus celebrated the Feast of Dedication.
Dedication in Hebrew is “Chanukah.”

Nathan,

I wonder if you never quote the verse you have in mind because if you did, it would show you're wrong..... yet another, still another falsehood.

Here's the verse: "At that time of the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter,"

Now, you have made the ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT claim that "JESUS CELEBRATED CHANUKAH." But as all who can read KNOW, what is undeniable, what is absolutely certain, is that the verse never remotely says that. What you claimed is obviously, clearly, undeniably false. What you claim is NOT substantiated by the verse (which I suspect is why you didn't quote it). Yet another obvious falsehood..... repeated over and over and over.... in spite of being corrected and in spite of everyone (who can read) KNOWING what you say is completely unsubstantiated. Is it you cannot read? Or that truth just doesn't matter to you? Seriously.... it's your pattern.

And obviously, your point is irrelevant. It's entirely irrelevant to anything in this thread whether Jesus celebrated anything. Jesus celebrating some EVENT has nothing whatsoever to do with ERGO some book being officially/formally declared by some Ruling Body to be the inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I celebrate the Fourth of July - that doesn't make the Declaration of Independance of the USA to be officially declared by all Christians as canonical Scripture. THINK, McFly, THINK





Andrew,

Sorry, but your claim that the verse states he ATTENDED the feast is simply untrue.

Here's the verse: "At that time of the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter,"

If Nathan is wrong and you now join with others in pointing out this OBVIOUS falsehood, then we must ask are you correct and it instead states that "Jesus ATTENDED the Feast?" It doesn't say he CELEBRATED the even but rather that He ATTENDED the event? Is that true, is your claim correct? Friend, the word for "attended" is parakoloúthisan.. WHERE, pray tell, is that word in John 10:22? Brother, it's NOT there. All who can read know that. IMO, you are as wrong as Nathan, claiming the verse states that honest person who can read KNOWS it does not.

Now, the next verse says He was at the Porch of Solomon. So, He was present in Jerusalem at the time but it does NOT say He "attended" some festival or that He celebrated some festival. If I go to Baghdad during Ramadan, THAT does not prove that ERGO I celebrated Ramadan and thus consider the Koran to be the inerrant, canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God (Scripture). Come on, Andrew.


But your point is irrelevant. But even IF the text stated "Jesus attended the Festival and celebrated it" (which the Bible NEVER REMOTELY STATES, as I'm sure you admit) that does not mean ERGO some book that mentions that festival ERGO had been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I celebrate the Fourth of July, that doens't make any of the thousands of books that speak of what happened on July 4, 1776 to THEREFORE having been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I have a friend who is HINDU (NOT Christian) and he (and his family) celebrate Christmas and attend Christmas events, does that prove ERGO Hindus accept the Books of Matthew and Luke as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God? Of course not! Come on, my friend!



A blessed Pentecost to you and yours....


- Josiah






.



.

 

[Andrew]

Nathan,

I wonder if you never quote the verse you have in mind because if you did, it would show you're wrong..... yet another, still another falsehood.

Here's the verse: "At the time of the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter,"

Now, you have made the ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT claim that "JESUS CELEBRATED CHANUKAH." But as all who can read KNOW, what is undeniable, what is absolutely certain, is that the verse never remotely says that. What you claimed is false. What you claim is NOT substantiated by the verse (which I suspect is why you didn't quote it). Yet another obvious falsehood..... repeated over and over and over.... in spite of being corrected and in spite of everyone (who can read) KNOWING what you say is completely unsubstantiated. Is it you cannot read? Or that truth just doesn't matter to you? Seriously.... it's your pattern.

And obviously, it's entirely irrelevant to anything in this thread whether Jesus celebrated anything. Jesus celebrating some EVENT has nothing whatsoever to do with ERGO some book being officially/formally declared by some Ruling Body to be the inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I celebrate the Fourth of July - that doesn't make the Declaration of Independance of the USA to be officially declared by all Christians as canonical Scripture. THINK, McFly, THINK




.



.

Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah, he was a Rabbi and teacher of the Law and High Priest, he preached at the Temple in Jerusalem during the festival.

Celebrate meaning
2) perform (a religious ceremony) publicly and duly, in particular officiate at (the Eucharist).

i.e. "he celebrated holy communion"

 

[Origen]

Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah

Untrue! The text NEVER states "Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah."

 

[Andrew]

Untrue! The text NEVER states "Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah."

lol did I say that the bible stated it?

His disciples, concerned for Jesus, suggested he NOT go because they feared that the Jews might kill him, Jesus says "my time has not yet come" (for his persecution) so he journeyed to Jerusalem alone where the festival of lights is celebrated

 

[Josiah]

Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah, he was a Rabbi and teacher of the Law and High Priest, he preached at the Temple in Jerusalem during the festival.

Andrew,


Come on, let's be honest and respect Scripture.

NOWHERE does the Bible say that Jesus ",made sure He was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah." It does NOT say that, does it? Let's be truthful... let's be honest... let's respect Scripture.

Jesus spoke at the Porch of Solomon. His words are recorded in 25-30. And NOTHING He said so much as mentions Hanukkah or Second Maccabees or what books have been officially, formally declared to be canonical Scripture by some Ruling Body of Christianity. Read the words. I can't find the words "attended" "celebrated" "accepted" "preached" "Hanukkah" "Second Maccabees" "Performed" "Canonical." We all know that. Indeed, what the crowds ask Him has NOTHING to do with Hanukkah.... and what He says has NOTHING to do with Hanukkah. Or Second Maccabees. Or what is and is not canonical Scripture.



And again, SO WHAT? Let's agree that the Holy Spirit completely blew it, inspiring the wrong words, and the verse SHOULD have been, "So Jesus made sure He was in Jerusalem because He insisted on celebrating Hanukkah there. He attended the festival and preached inside the Temple all about Hanukkah." Let's pretend that's what the Holy Spirit MEANT to inspire in John 10:22 (and Nathan and you know that) but just goofed. SO WHAT? How does that prove that therefore all Christianity had officially, formally in its Ruling Body declared all the books Nathan means by Apocrypha to be The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inspired words of God?" How would the corrected verse substantiate that? Pray tell. Even if the Bible is wrong in that verse and states what you and Nathan insists it should state?

Even IF the text stated "Jesus attended the Festival and celebrated it, preaching about it in the Temple" (which the Bible NEVER REMOTELY STATES, as I'm sure you admit) that does not mean ERGO some book that mentions that festival ERGO had been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I celebrate the Fourth of July, that doens't make any of the thousands of books that speak of what happened on July 4, 1776 to THEREFORE having been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I have a friend who is HINDU (NOT Christian) and he (and his family) celebrate Christmas and attend Christmas events, does that prove ERGO Hinduism in some official declaration of its Ruling Body declared the Books of Matthew and Luke as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God? Of course not! Come on, my friend!




A blessed Pentecost to you and yours...


- Josiah




.

 

[Origen]

lol did I say that the bible stated it?

lol I didn't say you did. I was pointing out the obvious fact that the text does not support your claim. The text NEVER states "Jesus made sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah."

His disciples, concerned for Jesus, suggested he NOT go because they feared that the Jews might kill him, Jesus says "my time has not yet come" (for his persecution) so he journeyed to Jerusalem alone where the festival of lights is celebrated

And that passage as well says NOTHING about Jesus making "sure he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah."

 

[NathanH83]

Then show everyone where the text states "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything. Oh that's right you can't because it doesn't.


I am saying the text NEVER states "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything.


No word games here only the fact that the WORDS "Jesus celebrated" or "Jesus attended" anything are NOT found in the text.

Exactly. Word game. Go away now. Not interested in your games.

 

[NathanH83]

Andrew,


Come on, let's be honest and respect Scripture.

NOWHERE does the Bible say that Jesus ",made sure He was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah." It does NOT say that, does it? Let's be truthful... let's be honest... let's respect Scripture.

Jesus spoke at the Porch of Solomon. His words are recorded in 25-30. And NOTHING He said so much as mentions Hanukkah or Second Maccabees or what books have been officially, formally declared to be canonical Scripture by some Ruling Body of Christianity. Read the words. I can't find the words "attended" "celebrated" "accepted" "preached" "Hanukkah" "Second Maccabees" "Performed" "Canonical." We all know that. Indeed, what the crowds ask Him has NOTHING to do with Hanukkah.... and what He says has NOTHING to do with Hanukkah. Or Second Maccabees. Or what is and is not canonical Scripture.



And again, SO WHAT? Let's agree that the Holy Spirit completely blew it, inspiring the wrong words, and the verse SHOULD have been, "So Jesus made sure He was in Jerusalem because He insisted on celebrating Hanukkah there. He attended the festival and preached inside the Temple all about Hanukkah." Let's pretend that's what the Holy Spirit MEANT to inspire in John 10:22 (and Nathan and you know that) but just goofed. SO WHAT? How does that prove that therefore all Christianity had officially, formally in its Ruling Body declared all the books Nathan means by Apocrypha to be The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inspired words of God?" How would the corrected verse substantiate that? Pray tell. Even if the Bible is wrong in that verse and states what you and Nathan insists it should state?

Even IF the text stated "Jesus attended the Festival and celebrated it, preaching about it in the Temple" (which the Bible NEVER REMOTELY STATES, as I'm sure you admit) that does not mean ERGO some book that mentions that festival ERGO had been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I celebrate the Fourth of July, that doens't make any of the thousands of books that speak of what happened on July 4, 1776 to THEREFORE having been declared by all Christianity as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. I have a friend who is HINDU (NOT Christian) and he (and his family) celebrate Christmas and attend Christmas events, does that prove ERGO Hinduism in some official declaration of its Ruling Body declared the Books of Matthew and Luke as The inerrant, canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God? Of course not! Come on, my friend!




A blessed Pentecost to you and yours...


- Josiah




.

What do you mean you can find the word Hanukkah in the text? It’s there.

The word Chanukah is merely a Hebrew word that means dedication. It says Feast of Dedication. And where is Jesus? At the temple. The very same temple Judas Maccabee dedicated.

Andrew claimed that Jesus made sure to be in Jerusalem at the temple during Hanukkah. Where was Jesus? At Jerusalem. Where in Jerusalem? On Solomon’s porch, which is at the temple. When was it? During the Feast of Henukkah/Dedication.

Yes, it DOES say that. What Andrew said is quite true.

When people say that the New Testament never references the Apocrypha, they’re lying.