What do you think about this Bible that says Daniel 8 and 11 prophesy about Maccabees?

[NathanH83]

I asked you study.
Were the maccabees levites or Jews?

You already asked that question, and I already answered.

You ask me to study, but you have not studied yourself, because if you had, you would have read 1 Maccabees 2:54, which says Mattathias was the descendant of Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron.

1 Maccabees 2:54 “Phinees our father in being zealous and fervent obtained the covenant of an everlasting priesthood.”

 

[NathanH83]

Are you absolutely claiming that the maccabees are from the tribe of levi?

Yes. Read it.

 

[pinacled]

I am providing relevant and important information from 1st Maccabees for others read and consider. They are self explanatory. The author said what he meant.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).


Those verses are able explain.

I hear you

 

[pinacled]

Yes. Read it.

And if i show you hebrew tradition will you concede?

 

[NathanH83]

I hear you

What do you make of the quotes Origen provided? What do you think the significance of those verses is, and how does it apply to this conversation?

 

[pinacled]

What do you make of the quotes Origen provided? What do you think the significance of those verses is, and how does it apply to this conversation?

Are you afraid?


Of tradition.

 

[pinacled]

148 yr?

 

[Origen]

The Jews CONSTANTLY said and did things in this very nature! Always awaiting a sign, given a sign, rebelling anyway, always awaiting a prophet, given one, not following through on their end, over and over and over again the Jews (save a few) CONSTANTLY let God down.. Read the words of the prophets, God is always frustrated with the great majority of his people because they refuse to listen.

Read exodus I mean come on! They complained after great miracles because they felt they would have been better off staying in bondage, then they worship a golden calf, later God calls the house of Israel like unto a whore whom he will strip down in front of all the nations she has whored with unless she repents!

Why a New Jerusalem you suppose? Because the one the Jews live in now is of old, given time to repent and has not, thus according to Malachi is cursed if they refuse the the prophets to come.
Distressed and constantly awaiting on instructions is just something the Jews did habitually (save a few)

Their meaning is self evident.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” (1 Maccabees 4:46).

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” (1 Maccabees 9:27).

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41).

 

[Josiah]

Should we likewise omit everything between the death of Moses up to Jesus?

Andrew -


Omit from what? As what?

I see no reason to omit ANYTHING from ANYTHING just because it came into being between the death of Moses and the birth of Jesus.
I see no reason to include ANYTHING from ANYTHING just because it came into being between the death of Moses and the birth of Jesus.


Now, how does any of that substantiate that one or more of the 4 books with Maccabees in the moniker was officially/formally/universally declared by Judaism and/or Christianity to be The canonical, inerrant, divinely-inscripturated words of God (Scripture)? We're still waiting for the officially declaration of some authoritative Ruling Body of ALL Judaism and/or Christianity.... not just 3 people calling something "Scripture" or 3 people quoting from something or some local, regional meeting of a section but the official/formal declaration of a Ruling Body speaking for the ENTIRE religion. When you have that, give the universal ruling body, the name of the meeting, the date and place, and the exact wording of the formal declaration.





.

 

[Josiah]

You may include ANYTHING you like in a tome with "BIBLE" on the cover. Pictures..... illustrations...... historical notes..... drawings.... maps..... a concordance..... Luther's Small Catechism..... outlines..... some things in red letters.... well, anything that's helpful. The publishing companies will put in ANYTHING if it means selling more books; they are eager to please prospective buyers (it's how they make money).

But if you claim that anything found in any tome with "BIBLE" on the cover MUST ERGO be THE canonical, inerrant, divinely-inscripturated words of God (Scripture) then you've made a remarkable claim with a demand for proof.

I'm sure Luther would approve

Andrew -


Yes! Luther INCLUDED stuff in his tome that he did not regard as Scripture but as HELPFUL. Luther thought that HELPFUL things could be included in a tome with BIBLE written on the cover; such does not make it SCRIPTURE.

Nathan's point was stuff that's HELPFUL should be included in such a tome along with Scripture. Many agree with him, including Luther and the Anglican Church and most publishing houses. I certainly agree with him on that.

My tome (The Lutheran Study Bible) is 2,474 pages long. The majority of that is not Scripture. It contains HUNDREDS of notations, illustrations, maps, historical articles, explanations of weights and measures, chronologies, a large concordance, articles on interpretation and the Law/Gospel dynamic, Luther's Small Catechism and yes, the books Americans like to call "Apocrypha." And much more! Luther's tome included "helpful" things, too! So, Luther and Lutherans are NOT opposed to putting HELPFUL things in the Bible. It's GOOD to read that stuff, use that stuff, and certainly appropriate to consider and quote that stuff. BUT that has nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with those extra resources ERGO being The canonical, inerrant, divinely-inscripturated words of God (Scripture). Nathan thinks HELPFUL stuff should be included in the tome. I agree. Most publishing houses agree. He just seems to confuse HELPFUL with SCRIPTURE. Perhaps you do, too.





.

 

[pinacled]

You already asked that question, and I already answered.

You ask me to study, but you have not studied yourself, because if you had, you would have read 1 Maccabees 2:54, which says Mattathias was the descendant of Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron.

1 Maccabees 2:54 “Phinees our father in being zealous and fervent obtained the covenant of an everlasting priesthood.”

You are taking something out of context to prove a baseless claim.


1 Maccabees 2
[ Now therefore, my sons, be ye zealous for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of your fathers.

51Call to remembrance what acts our fathers did in their time; so shall ye receive great honour and an everlasting name.

52Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness?

53Joseph in the time of his distress kept the commandment and was made lord of Egypt.

54Phinees our father in being zealous and fervent obtained the covenant of an everlasting priesthood.

55Jesus for fulfilling the word was made a judge in Israel.

56Caleb for bearing witness before the congregation received the heritage of the land.

57David for being merciful possessed the throne of an everlasting kingdom.

58Elias for being zealous and fervent for the law was taken up into heaven.

59Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, by believing were saved out of the flame.

60Daniel for his innocency was delivered from the mouth of lions.

61And thus consider ye throughout all ages, that none that put their trust in him shall be overcome.

62Fear not then the words of a sinful man: for his glory shall be dung and worms. ]

 

[pinacled]

You already asked that question, and I already answered.

You ask me to study, but you have not studied yourself, because if you had, you would have read 1 Maccabees 2:54, which says Mattathias was the descendant of Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron.

1 Maccabees 2:54 “Phinees our father in being zealous and fervent obtained the covenant of an everlasting priesthood.”

[ 'In those days arose Mattathias the son of John, the son of Simeon, a priest of the sons of Joarib]

Who is joarib?

Specifically according to the kjv? 1611 if available.

 

[Origen]

Luther INCLUDED stuff in his tome that he did not regard as Scripture but as HELPFUL. Luther thought that HELPFUL things could be included in a tome with BIBLE written on the cover; such does not make it SCRIPTURE.

Exactly! And others said the same long before Luther. Athanasius, for example, make a very clear distinction between canonical and non-canonical books. He states:

"But for the sake of greater exactness I add this also, writing under obligation, as it were. There are other books besides these, indeed not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being merely read; nor is there any place a mention of secret writings. But such are the invention of heretics, who indeed write them whenever they wish, bestowing upon them their approval, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as if they were ancient writings, they find a means by which to lead astray the simple-minded."

 

[Andrew]

Andrew -


Yes! Luther INCLUDED stuff in his tome that he did not regard as Scripture but as HELPFUL. Luther thought that HELPFUL things could be included in a tome with BIBLE written on the cover; such does not make it SCRIPTURE.

Nathan's point was stuff that's HELPFUL should be included in such a tome along with Scripture. Many agree with him, including Luther and the Anglican Church and most publishing houses. I certainly agree with him on that.

My tome (The Lutheran Study Bible) is 2,474 pages long. The majority of that is not Scripture. It contains HUNDREDS of notations, illustrations, maps, historical articles, explanations of weights and measures, chronologies, a large concordance, articles on interpretation and the Law/Gospel dynamic, Luther's Small Catechism and yes, the books Americans like to call "Apocrypha." And much more! Luther's tome included "helpful" things, too! So, Luther and Lutherans are NOT opposed to putting HELPFUL things in the Bible. It's GOOD to read that stuff, use that stuff, and certainly appropriate to consider and quote that stuff. BUT that has nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with those extra resources ERGO being The canonical, inerrant, divinely-inscripturated words of God (Scripture). Nathan thinks HELPFUL stuff should be included in the tome. I agree. Most publishing houses agree. He just seems to confuse HELPFUL with SCRIPTURE. Perhaps you do, too.





.

However Luther stated that 1rst Maccabees IS worthy of being part of scripture as opposed to 2nd Maccabees in which he discouraged against

 

[Lamb]

However Luther stated that 1rst Maccabees IS worthy of being part of scripture as opposed to 2nd Maccabees in which he discouraged against

At which point in Luther's life did he believe that though? You see, whenever someone wants to state that Luther said something, we have to know WHEN he said it, to whom and in what context.

If Luther truly considered it canon it would still be considered canon by Lutherans. When the apocrypha was included in Luther's bible, it was described by Martin Luther as useful texts to read, but not divinely inspired.

 

[Andrew]

At which point in Luther's life did he believe that though? You see, whenever someone wants to state that Luther said something, we have to know WHEN he said it, to whom and in what context.

If Luther truly considered it canon it would still be considered canon by Lutherans. When the apocrypha was included in Luther's bible, it was described by Martin Luther as useful texts to read, but not divinely inspired.

Note: "not unworthy" = "worthy"


Preface to the First Book of Maccabees 1533


This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel. For the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy in that chapter, about the abomination and misfortune which was going to befall the people of Israel, is here described—namely, Antiochus Epiphanes—and in much the same way that Daniel [11:29–35] speaks of it: a little help and great persecution by the Gentiles and by false Jews, which is what took place at the time of the Maccabees. This is why the book is good for us Christians to read and to know.

In the first place, since Antiochus is regarded as a figure or image of the Antichrist who perpetrated the abomination and desolation of the worship of God in Jerusalem and in Judea not long before the birth and first coming of Christ, we learn from this to recognize the real Antichrist who is to devastate Christendom and destroy the worship of God [sometime] before the second and final coming of Christ. Therefore we should not be terrified when we experience such things and see them happening before our very eyes. Rather, be the chaos ever so great, and the devil as angry as he knows how, we should hold fast to this and take comfort in it, that we and all Christendom must nevertheless be sustained and finally saved.


For we too see the help, though small and slight, which God the Almighty has begun to grant us. The dear and holy gospel is the sword with which God’s own can nevertheless valiantly attack the Antichrist of our day and actually accomplish something—even though it cost much suffering and bloodshed—just as God aided his people with the sword of the Maccabees in that day. Although it did not happen without persecution and great heartache, they nevertheless cleansed the temple, restored the worship of God [4:36–61], and brought the people together again under their former government. Today, in this same way, the gospel is sweeping out idolatry—as Christ says, that his angels will purge out of his kingdom all causes of offense [Matt. 13:41]—and is bringing the real Christians together again into the old true Christian faith and unto genuine good works and worship of God.

In the second place we should take heart that God helped those people not only against Antiochus and the Gentiles but also against the traitorous and disloyal Jews who had gone over to the Gentiles and were helping to persecute, kill, and torment their own people and brethren. We should be sure of [God’s help] and remain unafraid even when false Christians and rabble-rousers—who have now become our betrayers—turn against us and plague and harm us as much as, if not more than, our Antiochus or Antichrist. For Daniel [11:32–34] has said it, and for our comfort proclaimed it, that things must happen this way; that the children of our people would deal treacherously with us and blithely help to persecute us. Therefore we shall not fare much better than those pious children of Israel did under their Antiochus or Antichrist, at the hands of their false brethren.

However those same enemies and traitors are amply punished by God at the end; their tyranny and treachery does not go undetected. So with a glad eye and good courage we may face our Antichrist, tyrants, and rabble-rousers, and endure their abuse, confident that they will not go on very long, much less bring matters to the point they intend, that instead (like Antiochus and those other traitors) they will soon be getting their due reward. Indeed a good deal of that punishment has already begun and is daily increasing. Hardened and blinded, though, they remain unmoved by all this. However that makes no difference to us: they will get it just as those others did. Since they do not want it any other way, may God the Almighty grant that it be done quickly and soon, that his name be hallowed, his kingdom advanced, and all saddened hearts, now held captive in the kingdom of the devil and of the Antichrist, be comforted. Amen.

Source: LW 35:350-351

 

[pinacled]

Note: "not unworthy" = "worthy"


Preface to the First Book of Maccabees 1533


This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet its words and speech adhere to the same style as the other books of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel. For the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy in that chapter, about the abomination and misfortune which was going to befall the people of Israel, is here described—namely, Antiochus Epiphanes—and in much the same way that Daniel [11:29–35] speaks of it: a little help and great persecution by the Gentiles and by false Jews, which is what took place at the time of the Maccabees. This is why the book is good for us Christians to read and to know.

In the first place, since Antiochus is regarded as a figure or image of the Antichrist who perpetrated the abomination and desolation of the worship of God in Jerusalem and in Judea not long before the birth and first coming of Christ, we learn from this to recognize the real Antichrist who is to devastate Christendom and destroy the worship of God [sometime] before the second and final coming of Christ. Therefore we should not be terrified when we experience such things and see them happening before our very eyes. Rather, be the chaos ever so great, and the devil as angry as he knows how, we should hold fast to this and take comfort in it, that we and all Christendom must nevertheless be sustained and finally saved.


For we too see the help, though small and slight, which God the Almighty has begun to grant us. The dear and holy gospel is the sword with which God’s own can nevertheless valiantly attack the Antichrist of our day and actually accomplish something—even though it cost much suffering and bloodshed—just as God aided his people with the sword of the Maccabees in that day. Although it did not happen without persecution and great heartache, they nevertheless cleansed the temple, restored the worship of God [4:36–61], and brought the people together again under their former government. Today, in this same way, the gospel is sweeping out idolatry—as Christ says, that his angels will purge out of his kingdom all causes of offense [Matt. 13:41]—and is bringing the real Christians together again into the old true Christian faith and unto genuine good works and worship of God.

In the second place we should take heart that God helped those people not only against Antiochus and the Gentiles but also against the traitorous and disloyal Jews who had gone over to the Gentiles and were helping to persecute, kill, and torment their own people and brethren. We should be sure of [God’s help] and remain unafraid even when false Christians and rabble-rousers—who have now become our betrayers—turn against us and plague and harm us as much as, if not more than, our Antiochus or Antichrist. For Daniel [11:32–34] has said it, and for our comfort proclaimed it, that things must happen this way; that the children of our people would deal treacherously with us and blithely help to persecute us. Therefore we shall not fare much better than those pious children of Israel did under their Antiochus or Antichrist, at the hands of their false brethren.

However those same enemies and traitors are amply punished by God at the end; their tyranny and treachery does not go undetected. So with a glad eye and good courage we may face our Antichrist, tyrants, and rabble-rousers, and endure their abuse, confident that they will not go on very long, much less bring matters to the point they intend, that instead (like Antiochus and those other traitors) they will soon be getting their due reward. Indeed a good deal of that punishment has already begun and is daily increasing. Hardened and blinded, though, they remain unmoved by all this. However that makes no difference to us: they will get it just as those others did. Since they do not want it any other way, may God the Almighty grant that it be done quickly and soon, that his name be hallowed, his kingdom advanced, and all saddened hearts, now held captive in the kingdom of the devil and of the Antichrist, be comforted. Amen.

Source: LW 35:350-351

Is the "LW" an acronym for life and works?
Who is the "source"?

Martin Luther (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

Excerpt; record of Luther's testimony
[ Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the Pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. (1521, WA 7:838/LW 32:112)

 

[NathanH83]

Exactly! And others said the same long before Luther. Athanasius, for example, make a very clear distinction between canonical and non-canonical books. He states:

"But for the sake of greater exactness I add this also, writing under obligation, as it were. There are other books besides these, indeed not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being merely read; nor is there any place a mention of secret writings. But such are the invention of heretics, who indeed write them whenever they wish, bestowing upon them their approval, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as if they were ancient writings, they find a means by which to lead astray the simple-minded."

So you think the book of Esther is the invention of heretics?
The early church councils contradicted Athananius’ false claim and declared Esther divine canonical scripture.
Why are you quoting the false beliefs of a church father that the church councils disproved?

 

[NathanH83]

[ 'In those days arose Mattathias the son of John, the son of Simeon, a priest of the sons of Joarib]

Who is joarib?

Specifically according to the kjv? 1611 if available.

He’s listed among the Levite priests:

“Now the first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,”
-1 Chronicles 24:7

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Chronicles 24:7 - New King James Version

Now the first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,

www.biblegateway.com

 

[NathanH83]

At which point in Luther's life did he believe that though? You see, whenever someone wants to state that Luther said something, we have to know WHEN he said it, to whom and in what context.

If Luther truly considered it canon it would still be considered canon by Lutherans. When the apocrypha was included in Luther's bible, it was described by Martin Luther as useful texts to read, but not divinely inspired.

Lutherans say it’s not scripture. But the early church called it divine canonical scripture, more than a thousand years before Lutherans existed.

See the problem there?