Jesus died for the sins of the world

Josiah

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I'm reminded of one who posted this at another site:

"All the many religions of the world acknowledge we live in a fallen, broken, sinful world ... and that God does something about this. Imagine we are in a burning hut...

THE WAY OF THE MONKEY (every religion except Christianity):

Mother monkey comes for her baby. The baby jumps on her back and hangs on tight, while Mom gets runs out. Baby is okay because she jumped on the mother's back and held on.

THE WAY OF THE CAT (Christianity):

Mother cat comes for her kitten. She puts her teeth in the kitten's back, picks her up, and carries her out of the hut. Kitten is okay because Mom saved her.



A blessed Easter Season to all....



- Josiah
 

Andrew

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I think this good thread is getting derailed......

BUT (LOL)....

I disagree. Jesus is not the OFFERER of salvation, He's the Savior.





Which is it? We cannot seek God or "take" anything...... or God just OFFERS a gift and we can seek and take it?







So, which is it? Jesus doesn't save but makes it POSSIBLE for us to save ourselves IF we choose to take it? OR Jesus saves us and gives us faith that makes such our own?



Now, to the topic here: Yes, Jesus died for ALL. No, not all are saved because the divine gift of faith is needed to apprehend that, to apply that to our case. It's SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE, all of which is the gift and action of God, who alone is the Savior (SOLI DEO GLORIA)




.
Which is it?
God wills that all be saved and the atonement was for the sins of the world (man has no free will)
Or
God wills that only a certain chosen number of people be saved and the atonement for only the sins of those whom he made 'believe' and the rest of the world has no chance because God willed them none.
(Man has no free will)
 

Andrew

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I'm reminded of one who posted this at another site:

"All the many religions of the world acknowledge we live in a fallen, broken, sinful world ... and that God does something about this. Imagine we are in a burning hut...

THE WAY OF THE MONKEY (every religion except Christianity):

Mother monkey comes for her baby. The baby jumps on her back and hangs on tight, while Mom gets runs out. Baby is okay because she jumped on the mother's back and held on.

THE WAY OF THE CAT (Christianity):

Mother cat comes for her kitten. She puts her teeth in the kitten's back, picks her up, and carries her out of the hut. Kitten is okay because Mom saved her.



A blessed Easter Season to all....



- Josiah
If the monkey is Jesus and the baby is the sinner and the opportunity for a chance of salvation is grace and the decision to jump on is faith and the holding on is the picking up of my cross then I agree with the monkey version
 

Josiah

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If the monkey is Jesus and the baby is the sinner and the opportunity for a chance of salvation is grace and the decision to jump on is faith and the holding on is the picking up of my cross then I agree with the monkey version


I do not. God simply doesn't make it POSSIBLE for us to be Saved, He saves. I've had the "Monkey" position explained this way: "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta walk though it." This then explains what a Catholic teacher once told me, "Technically Jesus saves no one, He simply makes it possible for all to be saved." IMO, then it's deceptive to call Jesus the Savior if He saves none... if we enter heaven because WE simply walked through an open door; then the reason we enter heaven is because of what WE choose, WE did, WE accomplished - we save self.

IMO, grace is not an OPPORTUNITY, it is a free gift, a divine blessing.

IMO, faith is not a decision, faith is (as the Bible says) "the gift of God" whereby we apprehend/embrace what Jesus has done - making it our own. Since this is something God GIVES rather than we DO, then it's not our choice to jump on and cling to (as if we could!), but God's gift of saving (which includes our having faith).



Blessings!


Josiah



.
 

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Which is it?
God wills that all be saved and the atonement was for the sins of the world (man has no free will)
Or
God wills that only a certain chosen number of people be saved and the atonement for only the sins of those whom he made 'believe' and the rest of the world has no chance because God willed them none.
(Man has no free will)

What bible version are you using? I'm having trouble finding that "God wills all to be saved" but I'm finding "God desires all to be saved". That's a huge theological difference in meaning.
 

Andrew

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What bible version are you using? I'm having trouble finding that "God wills all to be saved" but I'm finding "God desires all to be saved". That's a huge theological difference in meaning.
Desire and want mean the same thing God wants all to be saved
Sounds like if he desires it but refuses it then his desire is a temptation that he must resist, maybe this is why salvation is not for everyone and the atonement is limited..

You know I struggle with being partially calvinists but Lutherans seem to believe the same thing. I don't believe any one can be saved without hearing the Gospel preached or hearing the word of God first, I read the Bible out of boredom but it called to me, but I feel that it was my decision to hear the word and God put it in my heart and I felt his presence for the first time in my life.
I did not ask for it, it was given, but I still had to hear the word of God first
 
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Josiah

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Which is it?
God wills that all be saved and the atonement was for the sins of the world (man has no free will)
Or
God wills that only a certain chosen number of people be saved and the atonement for only the sins of those whom he made 'believe' and the rest of the world has no chance because God willed them none.
(Man has no free will)


Neither.

God desires all to be saved; Jesus died for all - there is atonement available for the DEAD, lifeless, incapable-of-anything sinners.

God gives faith. That faith apprehends that gift and thus receives the blessngs of that: the dead are given life (".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of life.") The DEAD do not do anything.... God gives life.

Nowhere does the Bible state that dead, lifeless, fallen atheistic sinners void of God can give themselves life.
Nowhere does the Bible state that dead, lifeless, fallen, atheists void of anything from God can give themselves faith.
Nowhere does the Bible say anything about the Dead having will toward God.

The Bible says that God's grace and faith are the free gifts of God, not because of anything the dead unregenerate does.



Andrew...



Since God desires all to be Saved, and Jesus made atonement for all, why aren't all saved? Well, the only answer the Bible gives is beca8se they don't have faith. But that doesn't really answer the question since faith TOO is the Gift of God, the act of God. No one can even say the words "Jesus is Lord."

Here's what the Bible says: The DEAD are dead. They can and will do NOTHING spiritual and NOTHING to save themselves (meaning, they can't save themselves - 100% or 0,0000001%). The dead never give themselves life.... the dead cannot save themselves. They need to be RESCUED. They need to be GIVEN life. And only God... ONLY God... God ONLY can do this. And this is done via the SAVIOR (not offerer, not helper, not inspirer but The SAVIOR) - by HIS life, HIS death and HIS resurrection (providing life for all) which is applied to us via the divine GIFT of faith.


God loves all.
God desires all to be saved. And ONLY Jesus can do that; He is all-suffient. And that atonement has been made for all (objective justification)
God conveys that to the invididaul via the divine gift of faith (subjective justification)
God alone saves.
Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, Soli Deo Gloria

But not all are saved. Indeed wide is the door that leads not to heaven...


Okay.... then.... it is reasonable to ask, why aren't all saved.... what's the answer?

1. One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says Jesus died for all, God loves all, God desires all to be saved.... actually, it's only a few, just some, and one can know who that "some" is. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical. Indeed, it destroys Christianity.

2. One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says Jesus is the Savior, actually He saves no one (nor can He), is the Offerer - he earned a gift and offers it to all, some freely take it, some freely reject it - each then is responsible for their own destiny and salvation, each saves self by what he takes or doesn't take. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical. Indeed, it destroys Christianity.

3. One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says our works don't save us, actually it's a joint effort - Jesus doing His works for us, and we doing our works for Him; he's part savior and we are part savior; don't worry if he did his part just do your part and then you can pat yourself on the back when you enter those pearly gates cuz you added the works you had to add. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical, indeed, it destroys Christianity.

Jesus is not PART Savior (the part that doesn't save anyone) and self is not PART Savior (the part that actually saves). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus does the saving. If you are saved, it's because of Jesus. "Soli Deo Gloria" (or as Reformed Baptists like to say, "You GOT saved.") So, why aren't all saved.

What is the answer? Sorry, the Bible never says. And for 1500 years, all Christians accepted that the Bible doesn't say. Luther put it this way (and I'm paraphrasing!) "Shut up and get off your ________ and DO what God commanded you as a Christian to do! GO! Baptize! Teach! Love! Stop wondering whether God is doing His job and you do yours!"

Arminianist and Calvinists have FOUGHT for 500 years because each "side" appointed itself to ANSWER their question (and insist God agrees with them an apologize for not clearly saying so in the Bible). BOTH have a logical, reasonable answer that makes a lot of sense to them, but as their enemy proves, is very unbiblical and dangerous and undermines the very heart of Christianity.

This bothers some but my brother, we just don't have the answer. Except this: I must GO and baptize and teach and love. And let God be God. HOW He performs His miracle of life.... HOW He does the metamorphasis.... HOW, we just don't know. WHY some have life and others don't, we just can't determine. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." The teacher of my doctrine class said this, "Heresy is never the result of saying too little, it's the result of saying too much." Or as my Greek Orthodox friend was apt to say "The problem with too much Western theology is the unwillingness to shut up."



Maybe something there helps.




.
 
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Andrew

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Neither.

God desires all to be saved; Jesus died for all - there is atonement available for the DEAD, lifeless, incapable-of-anything sinners.

God gives faith. That faith apprehends that gift and thus receives the blessngs of that: the dead are given life (".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of life.") The DEAD do not do anything.... God gives life.

Nowhere does the Bible state that dead, lifeless, fallen atheistic sinners void of God can give themselves life.
Nowhere does the Bible state that dead, lifeless, fallen, atheists void of anything from God can give themselves faith.
Nowhere does the Bible say anything about the Dead having will toward God.

The Bible says that God's grace and faith are the free gifts of God, not because of anything the dead unregenerate does.



Andrew...



Since God desires all to be Saved, and Jesus made atonement for all, why aren't all saved? Well, the only answer the Bible gives is beca8se they don't have faith. But that doesn't really answer the question since faith TOO is the Gift of God, the act of God. No one can even say the words "Jesus is Lord."

Here's what the Bible says: The DEAD are dead. They can and will do NOTHING spiritual and NOTHING to save themselves (meaning, they can't save themselves - 100% or 0,0000001%). The dead never give themselves life.... the dead cannot save themselves. They need to be RESCUED. They need to be GIVEN life. And only God... ONLY God... God ONLY can do this. And this is done via the SAVIOR (not offerer, not helper, not inspirer but The SAVIOR) - by HIS life, HIS death and HIS resurrection (providing life for all) which is applied to us via the divine GIFT of faith.


God loves all.
God desires all to be saved. And ONLY Jesus can do that; He is all-suffient. And that atonement has been made for all (objective justification)
God conveys that to the invididaul via the divine gift of faith (subjective justification)
God alone saves.
Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, Soli Deo Gloria

But not all are saved. Indeed wide is the door that leads not to heaven...


Okay.... then.... it is reasonable to ask, why aren't all saved.... what's the answer?

1 One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says Jesus died for all, God loves all, God desires all to be saved.... actually, it's only a few, just some, and one can know who that "some" is. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical. Indeed, it destroys Christianity.

2. One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says Jesus is the Savior, actually He saves no one (nor can He), is the Offerer - he earned a gift and offers it to all, some freely take it, some freely reject it - each then responsible for their own destiny since Jesus saves no one. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical. Indeed, it destroys Christianity.

3. One could theorize that the Bible is wrong when it says our works don't save us, actually it's a joint effort - Jesus doing His works for us, and we doing our works for Him; he's part savior and we are part savior; don't worry if he did his part just do your part and then you can pat yourself on the back when you enter those pearly gates. Logical... makes sense.... it's just very unbiblical, indeed, it destroys Christianity.

Jesus is not PART Savior (the part that doesn't save anyone) and self is not PART Savior (the part that actually saves). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus does the saving. If you are saved, it's because of Jesus. "Soli Deo Gloria" (or as Reformed Baptists like to say, "You GOT saved.") So, why aren't all saved.

What is the answer? Sorry, the Bible never says. And for 1500 years, all Christians accepted that the Bible doesn't say. Luther put it this way (and I'm paraphrasing!) "Shut up and get off your ________ and DO what God commanded you as a Christian to do! GO! Baptize! Teach! Love! Stop wondering whether God is doing His job and you do yours!"

Arminianist and Calvinists have FOUGHT for 500 years because each "side" appointed itself to ANSWER their question (and insist God agrees with them an apologize for not clearly saying so in the Bible). BOTH have a logical, reasonable answer that makes a lot of sense to them, but as their enemy proves, is very unbiblical and dangerous and undermines the very heart of Christianity.

This bothers some but my brother, we just don't have the answer. Except this: I must GO and baptize and teach and love. And let God be God. HOW He performs His miracle of life.... HOW He does the metamorphasis.... HOW, we just don't know. WHY some have life and others don't, we just can't determine. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." The teacher of my doctrine class said this, "Heresy is never the result of saying too little, it's the result of saying too much." Or as my Greek Orthodox friend was apt to say "The problem with too much Western theology is the unwillingness to shut up."



Maybe something there helps.




.
This basically wraps it up for me :)
Thanks for all the help here, you and Lammy make perfect sense, it's like I get it but I bounce back and forth with Calvinism, like Jesus only died for those that God randomly picked out of a world of sinners to give life to and other sinners just stay dead because they are sinners like us but God did not give them the ability to repent.. sounds ugly, like being the few in the life boats as the titanic sinks and even with plenty of space to "preach" them on board they cant see or hear me because they were all born deaf and blind .. yuck lol

I dunno, Luther was right on this one tho
 

pinacled

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The problem is that the phrase "for our sins" doesn't really clarify much because the adverb "for" could refer to various different things.
Love fulfills the Torah, covers a multitude of transgressions, and conquers death.

John 15:13
Hebrews 9
1 John 3:16

Blood shed willingly in self sacrifice by The Holy One heals all the earth from despair till the time comes for a new earth.
Revelation 17:6

Blessings Always
 
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atpollard

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Which is it?
God wills that all be saved and the atonement was for the sins of the world (man has no free will)
Or
God wills that only a certain chosen number of people be saved and the atonement for only the sins of those whom he made 'believe' and the rest of the world has no chance because God willed them none.
(Man has no free will)
Neither.

A false dilemma is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. In its most simple form, called the fallacy of bifurcation, all but two alternatives are excluded. A fallacy is an argument, i.e. a series of premises together with a conclusion, that is unsound, i.e. not both valid and true. Fallacies are usually divided into formal and informal fallacies. Formal fallacies are unsound because of their structure while informal fallacies are unsound because of their content. The problematic content in the case of the false dilemma has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives. Sometimes a distinction is made between a false dilemma and a false dichotomy. On this view, the term "false dichotomy" refers to the false disjunctive claim while the term "false dilemma" refers not just to this claim but to the argument based on this claim.​

Try this:
  • God both desires and commands all men to repent. (Acts 17:30)
  • All men follow their natural desires (fallen nature) and refuse to repent. (John 3:19-20; Romans 3:10-12)
  • Therefore, God draws some, chosen according to His purpose, to be drawn to the Son as His sheep, and these will hear and follow the Son, and receive eternal life. (John 6:43-45; John 10:26-30; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:3-14)
 

pinacled

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Preposition of a pronoun if I recall correctly.

The english language is complex to even Ivy league students.
 

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Origen

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And the context," for the world" carries meaning beyond death.

adverbs have conjuctive properties.

Hebrew has many examples of fluid languague with roots reminder of a single source of speech.
😂
 

pinacled

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use of criticism taken beyond the 7th yr is lawless.

mocking others to ensure usury is lawless.

demeaning and desparaiging others to gain authority is lawless.


This forum is for Fellowship.

Do you Understand?
 

Origen

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use of criticism taken beyond the 7th yr is lawless.

mocking others to ensure usury is lawless.

demeaning and desparaiging others to gain authority is lawless.

This forum is for Fellowship.

Do you Understand?
🤣
 

pinacled

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use of criticism taken beyond the 7th yr is lawless.

mocking others to ensure usury is lawless.

demeaning and desparaiging others to gain authority is lawless.


This forum is for Fellowship.

Do you Understand?
thankyou for revealing youre motives for posting
 

pinacled

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The problem is that the phrase "for our sins" doesn't really clarify much because the adverb "for" could refer to various different things.
you are correct in observing intracacies
 

pinacled

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Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, disbelief can be forgiven upon repentance, if not then they are left at the mercy seat of God where all unbelievers will be judged according to their works, this is at the 2nd resurrection, and those who are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, the meek of them shall inherit the Earth (although they were once ignorant of God and the message while on Earth, every knee will bow, the meek shall inherit the next world)
Murder is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 
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