Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

mailmandan

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Disobeying a specific command may be a manifestation of disbelief in that situation, but that does not mean Moses disbelieved God in general and was considered an unbeliever. Moses was not allowed to bring this assembly (including himself) into the land which was given them based on that act of disobedience (Exodus 20:12) but this does not mean that Moses was condemned as an unbeliever. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time.

Where people get into trouble is when they define belief/faith "as" obedience/works and end up teaching salvation by faith "and works." So although disobedient acts are a manifestation of disbelief in regards to those certain situations in which they were disobedient, this does not mean that only those who are 100% obedient 100% of the time in every situation are considered saved believers.

So the act of obedience that saves is to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through believing the gospel.
 

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Disobeying a specific command may be a manifestation of disbelief in that situation, but that does not mean Moses disbelieved God in general and was considered an unbeliever. Moses was not allowed to bring this assembly (including himself) into the land which was given them based on that act of disobedience (Exodus 20:12) but this does not mean that Moses was condemned as an unbeliever. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time.

Where people get into trouble is when they define belief/faith "as" obedience/works and end up teaching salvation by faith "and works." So although disobedient acts are a manifestation of disbelief in regards to those certain situations in which they were disobedient, this does not mean that only those who are 100% obedient 100% of the time in every situation are considered saved believers.

So the act of obedience that saves is to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through believing the gospel.

I agree that it's not 100% or nothing.
But that does not mean that obedience is not a condition of salvation.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Baptism is commanded.
Deliberate disobedience to that command is disbelief. And Jesus continued "but he who does not believe will be condemned.". That seems very clear to me.
That's not works based salvation.
 

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this does not mean that only those who are 100% obedient 100% of the time in every situation are considered saved believers.
Well, none of us can be 100% obedient anyway since we still live in sinful bodies.
 

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Going back to the first post on page one, The rich young ruler was not given the command to sell everything and to give to the poor as something he had to do to be saved but to point out that he was not as good as he thought he was. He gave the command to this man to expose his sin which it did exactly that as my understanding is that this man genuinely was not aware of his sin until Jesus gave that command to him. What this ruler should have done is to admit he was incapable of fulfilling this demand and to admit his need for redemption from his sin but he chose instead to walk away as he tragically chose his wealth over his soul and paid dearly for it.
 

mailmandan

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I agree that it's not 100% or nothing.
But that does not mean that obedience is not a condition of salvation.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Baptism is commanded.
Deliberate disobedience to that command is disbelief. And Jesus continued "but he who does not believe will be condemned.". That seems very clear to me.
That's not works based salvation.
If it was 100% obedience 100% of the time or else we would not be saved then none of us would be saved. At least we agree on that. In regards to Mark 16:16, if one truly believes then why would they refuse to be water baptized? It’s the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. There are some people who are converted on their deathbed without the opportunity to be water baptized, like the thief on the cross, yet he was not condemned.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation (without exceptions) then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

Josiah

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"is obedience a condition of salvation?"

John 3:36 says yes:
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." (RSV)


Correct. Our obedience is not what brings eternal life, as you stress, that's "believes in the Son." And correct again, he who believes obeys.

He without faith cannot obey since obedience requires faith... "without faith it is impossible to please God." The DEAD cannot walk in the Lord (even Hollywood understands this, the Walking Dead are dead). But once again ("the free gift of God" No one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' (much less obey!) unless FIRST the Holy Spirit empowers.



.
 
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Josiah

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Stephen -


{Note: When "salvation" is used, I'm speaking of "born again" of "regeneration" of the COMING of spiritual life, faith and the Holy Spirit (Justification in the narrow sense), of "initial grace." )



Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.



You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness, His blessing, His gift, His doing. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful, prideful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror.




Lent is the best time of all to examine our heart, our soul, our faith on this..... THE most important question in the universe, in eternity.




- Josiah



.
 

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Stephen -


{Note: When "salvation" is used, I'm speaking of "born again" of "regeneration" of the COMING of spiritual life, faith and the Holy Spirit (Justification in the narrow sense), of "initial grace." )



Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness, His blessing, His gift, His doing. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful, prideful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror.




Lent is the best time of all to examine our heart, our soul, our faith on this..... THE most important question in the universe, in eternity.




- Josiah



.

Josiah,
I am not suggesting that anyone saves themselves. But that does not preclude there being some conditions that we have to fulfill before Jesus saves us.
Fulfilling those conditions does not mean we earn salvation or that we save ourselves.

I have asked this more than once in another thread and got no reply.
If we have no part to play in our salvation then either everyone is saved, or God picks some to save and some not to save based on what? Dice? Random Pick?

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" That's two conditions to be saved. Perhaps I should save under normal conditions. They are the normal conditions he gave us. God can choose to save us for other reasons but that is God's choice not ours. But neither action actually saves us. It's Jesus that saves us when we believe and act in obedience.

Let's go back to the Israelites in the desert in Numbers 21
God sent fiery serpents as a punishment. When they repented God told Moses to make a bronze serpent on a pole and when a person was bitten, if they looked at the serpent then God saved them.
"So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (Num 21:9).

Did the people who looked at the serpent save themselves? No
Did God save them 100%? Yes
If they did not look at the serpent were they saved? No.
There was a condition attached to their being saved.
 

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Josiah,
I am not suggesting that anyone saves themselves. But that does not preclude there being some conditions that we have to fulfill before Jesus saves us.
Fulfilling those conditions does not mean we earn salvation or that we save ourselves.

I have asked this more than once in another thread and got no reply.
If we have no part to play in our salvation then either everyone is saved, or God picks some to save and some not to save based on what? Dice? Random Pick?

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" That's two conditions to be saved. Perhaps I should save under normal conditions. They are the normal conditions he gave us. God can choose to save us for other reasons but that is God's choice not ours. But neither action actually saves us. It's Jesus that saves us when we believe and act in obedience.

Let's go back to the Israelites in the desert in Numbers 21
God sent fiery serpents as a punishment. When they repented God told Moses to make a bronze serpent on a pole and when a person was bitten, if they looked at the serpent then God saved them.
"So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (Num 21:9).

Did the people who looked at the serpent save themselves? No
Did God save them 100%? Yes
If they did not look at the serpent were they saved? No.
There was a condition attached to their being saved.

The people who had faith looked at the bronze serpent (in Numbers). Those who didn't have faith did not look at it. The ones who had faith were already heaven bound, but could now continue to live because they trusted in the promise that God gave.

You asked If we have no part to play in our salvation then either everyone is saved, or God picks some to save and some not to save based on what? Dice? Random Pick?

The answer is that not all will have eternal life as in universalism. God is not the one who damns man...man is already hell bound and it's God who chooses to save man (predestination). There is no double predestination though. Damnation is man's fault for rejecting the Savior.
 

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The people who had faith looked at the bronze serpent (in Numbers). Those who didn't have faith did not look at it. The ones who had faith were already heaven bound, but could now continue to live because they trusted in the promise that God gave.

And if they believed and didn't look at the serpent? Would they have been saved?

You asked If we have no part to play in our salvation then either everyone is saved, or God picks some to save and some not to save based on what? Dice? Random Pick?

The answer is that not all will have eternal life as in universalism. God is not the one who damns man...man is already hell bound and it's God who chooses to save man (predestination). There is no double predestination though. Damnation is man's fault for rejecting the Savior.

Again you don't answer the question.
 

Josiah

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Josiah,
I am not suggesting that anyone saves themselves. But that does not preclude there being some conditions that we have to fulfill before Jesus saves us.
Fulfilling those conditions does not mean we earn salvation or that we save ourselves.


Stephen,

If self must DO something in order to be saved.... salvation is conditional upon self DOING that.... then the reason self is saved is because SELF did that, self supplied the condition upon which his salvation depends; self saved self, self is the Savior of self. Not Jesus. Very LEAST one can (honestly) claim is that Jesus is the PART Savior (the part that doesn't actually save anyone) and self is the PART Savior (by providing the condition on which it entirely depends), self is PART Savior (the part that actually means they go to heaven). But I hold that Jesus is the Savior. The ONLY and all-sufficient Savior.

Now, once saved, there are mandates. There are conditions on the saved; His own are to act as His own. But those are for the saved, not to be saved. The SAVED are to be obedient (and only they can - by faith) but the dead, lifeless, faithless, godless unsaved cannot be obedient... and aren't.




If we have no part to play in our salvation


... then we aren't the Savior. Someone else is.

See post 147




Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" That's two conditions to be saved. Perhaps '


Neither is an act of obedience by the fallen, dead, godless, lifeless unsaved. Both are God's gift. God saves.


I was baptized within one minute of my emergency C-Section. By our priest. He was there because it was not at all certain I would survive. I wasn't breathing.... I wasn't being obedient. I believe GOD baptized me, albeit via our priest. A gift of God... God's action... God's blessing. Not me being obedient. And I hold that at that moment, I believed.... I had faith.... because I was adequately obedient to something? No, I wasn't even conscience, not even breathing. The medical staff only knew I was alive because I had a (very week, very irregular) heart beat. No, faith is the free gift of God (as the Bible literally, verbatim states).... NO ONE is even capable of saying Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit so enables (NO ONE - not a 52 year old American with an IQ of 190 and 5 Ph.D.s who has memorized all 2865 paragraphs of the Catechism, not a little unconscience, unbreathing boy forcefully born 8 weeks early), it is the gift of God.




There was a condition attached to their being saved.


The Dead, UNregerate, lifeless, godless, FALLEN man is not going to baptize himself in the name of a God he rejects and repudiates.... and no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" unless the SPIRIT is causing that. If it's true that the DEAD, unregenerate, lifeless, godless sinner can save himself by his own obedience, then we don't need Sacraments, we don't need the Holy Spirit, we don't need the Church, we don't need the Gospel.


See post 147. If self saves self by supplying the condition(s) on which his salvation depends, then the Savior of self is self, accomplished by his works. And the Catholic Church is WRONG, deceiving, perhaps even lying to call Jesus the Savior when... well... His obedience saves no one, the obedience of SELF accomplishes that.




Blessings to you and yours in this holy season of Lent.


Josiah




.
 
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Stephen

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Stephen,

If self must DO something in order to be saved.... salvation is conditional upon self DOING that.... then the reason self is saved is because SELF did that, self supplied the condition upon which his salvation depends; self saved self, self is the Savior of self. Not Jesus. Very LEAST one can (honestly) claim is that Jesus is the PART Savior (the part that doesn't actually save anyone) and self is the PART Savior (by providing the condition on which it entirely depends), self is PART Savior (the part that actually means they go to heaven). But I hold that Jesus is the Savior. The ONLY and all-sufficient Savior.

Now, once saved, there are mandates. There are conditions on the saved; His own are to act as His own. But those are for the saved, not to be saved. The SAVED are to be obedient (and only they can - by faith) but the dead, lifeless, faithless, godless unsaved cannot be obedient... and aren't.







... then we aren't the Savior. Someone else is.

See post 147







Neither is an act of obedience by the fallen, dead, godless, lifeless unsaved. Both are God's gift. God saves.


I was baptized within one minute of my emergency C-Section. By our priest. He was there because it was not at all certain I would survive. I wasn't breathing.... I wasn't being obedient. I believe GOD baptized me, albeit via our priest. A gift of God... God's action... God's blessing. Not me being obedient. And I hold that at that moment, I believed.... I had faith.... because I was adequately obedient to something? No, I wasn't even conscience, not even breathing. The medical staff only knew I was alive because I had a (very week, very irregular) heart beat. No, faith is the free gift of God (as the Bible literally, verbatim states).... NO ONE is even capable of saying Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit so enables (NO ONE - not a 52 year old American with an IQ of 190 and 5 Ph.D.s who has memorized all 2865 paragraphs of the Catechism, not a little unconscience, unbreathing boy forcefully born 8 weeks early), it is the gift of God.







The Dead, UNregerate, lifeless, godless, FALLEN man is not going to baptize himself in the name of a God he rejects and repudiates.... and no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" unless the SPIRIT is causing that. If it's true that the DEAD, unregenerate, lifeless, godless sinner can save himself by his own obedience, then we don't need Sacraments, we don't need the Holy Spirit, we don't need the Church, we don't need the Gospel.


See post 147. If self saves self by supplying the condition(s) on which his salvation depends, then the Savior of self is self, accomplished by his works. And the Catholic Church is WRONG, deceiving, perhaps even lying to call Jesus the Savior when... well... His obedience saves no one, the obedience of SELF accomplishes that.




Blessings to you and yours in this holy season of Lent.


Josiah




.

1. I notice you dodged the issue of the serpent in the desert.

2. And you dodged this one:
Are you claiming that we are saved without belief?
If yes, then on what basis does God save us? Dice? Random Pick?
If no, then belief is a condition for salvation.
 

Josiah

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1. I notice you dodged the issue of the serpent in the desert.

It has nothing to do with justification.

See post 147



Are you claiming that we are saved without belief?


Of course not. It's Sola Gracia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, all the gift of God. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and that it's Jesus who saves.




If yes, then on what basis does God save us?

Jesus. His incarnation, His death, His resurrection. Jesus is the Savior. For the Savior, look to the Cross, not in the mirror. Thank Jesus, not yourself.

See post 147, And 151.



A blessed Lenten season to you and yours.



Josiah




.

 

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It has nothing to do with justification.

See post 147






Of course not. It's Sola Gracia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, all the gift of God. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and that it's Jesus who saves.






Jesus. His incarnation, His death, His resurrection. Jesus is the Savior. For the Savior, look to the Cross, not in the mirror. Thank Jesus, not yourself.

See post 147, And 151.



A blessed Lenten season to you and yours.



Josiah




.

Josiah,
I see you are intent on avoiding the questions I posed.
Therefore I shall waste no more time and trouble you no more.

God bless
Stephen
 

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Josiah,
I see you are intent on avoiding the questions I posed.
Therefore I shall waste no more time and trouble you no more.

God bless
Stephen

Josiah has answered all your questions.
 

pinacled

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pinacled

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Josiah,
I am not suggesting that anyone saves themselves. But that does not preclude there being some conditions that we have to fulfill before Jesus saves us.
Fulfilling those conditions does not mean we earn salvation or that we save ourselves.

I have asked this more than once in another thread and got no reply.
If we have no part to play in our salvation then either everyone is saved, or God picks some to save and some not to save based on what? Dice? Random Pick?

That's two conditions to be saved. Perhaps I should save under normal conditions. They are the normal conditions he gave us. God can choose to save us for other reasons but that is God's choice not ours. But neither action actually saves us. It's Jesus that saves us when we believe and act in obedience.

Let's go back to the Israelites in the desert in Numbers 21
God sent fiery serpents as a punishment. When they repented God told Moses to make a bronze serpent on a pole and when a person was bitten, if they looked at the serpent then God saved them.
"So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (Num 21:9).

Did the people who looked at the serpent save themselves? No
Did God save them 100%? Yes
If they did not look at the serpent were they saved? No.
There was a condition attached to their being saved.
[ "Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" ]

In response to the above provided statement.
Question 1:
Have you, ' stephen, believed and been baptized in The Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,?


Yes or No will suffice.
 
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Stephen

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[ "Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" ]

In response to the above provided statement.
Question 1:
Have you, ' stephen, believed and been baptized in The Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,?


Yes or No will suffice.
Yes
 

Stephen

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Pose a concise que one sentence at a time.

Otherwise, as lamchen has stated.
Yes, josiah has answered many of your questions.
Regardless if they were satisfactory or clear to your understanding,
Josiah communicated a response.

1 John 4
Responding to a question is not the same as replying to it.

But I think I'm done here.
God bless.
 
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