Do you understand The Trinity?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Do you understand the concept of The Trinity? I'm really frustrated because I don't. Most Christians I chat with act as if it's a simple, basic, 1st grade math exercise, but to me it seems more like a PhD-level quantum mechanics problem.

Am I Christianly-challenged or just regular stupid? I don't even know Who I'm praying to. I've probably prayed to the wrong God so far, and I probably still am. Being stupid makes me sad and angry. I feel like Penny from The Big Bang Theory.

 

[Lanman87]

The Trinity is a mystery. However, The Bible calls the Father God, Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God and proclaims that there is one God. The only logical conclusion of the Godhead, while being true to Scripture is a Trinitarian view.

The Trinity is perfect love and unity. Without the Trinitarian view of the Godhead then salvation as describe in the Scriptures would not work.

I've recently read two books dealing with the Trinity. The first is called "Life in the Trinity: An introduction to Theology With the Help of the Early Church Fathers" by Donald Fairbairn. The second is "The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything" by Fred Sanders.

Neither book is an apologetic book defending the doctrine of the Trinity. Instead both books are about why the Trinity is an important part of Christian understanding and how it changes the way we view Christian Formation.

 

[Josiah]

It's MYSTERY.

To me, this is not only understandable but unavoidable. We live in a world governed by physics (which in and of itself is LOADED with mystery!). It's all we know. And our puny, EXTREMELY limited, fallen, human brains are experienced exclusively with that. But God is outside physics (although He can enter it), God is the creator of physics, not subject to physics. So all our thinking about time and space.... all our concepts of reality... well.... they won't apply. Sometimes, we humble, puny CREATURES need to accept we don't know it all, we can't know it all. God is bigger than our brains.

I suspect God has told us what we can understand. His Scriptures are "age appropriate". [ I have a son, almost 3, and I OFTEN find myself having to explain things as best HE can comprehend]. The Father is God, the Son (Second Person) is God, the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son. And God is one. I hold that's true because it's what God told us. That I can't wrap my puny brain around that not only does NOT surprise me, I'd be shocked if I did "get" it.


My Dad tells a story of his childhood. They had a huge dog. And this dog loved to watch TV. It was mostly a passive thing, my Dad and the dog lying on the floor watching TV. But then some DOG would come on.... and suddenly, the pet shot up, ran behind the TV and started growling! My Dad would laugh at loud at how silly that dog was, how obviously the dog had no clue about television sets. But my Dad always adds (when he tells that story), he had no clue how the television worked, either!



.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Trinity is a mystery. However, The Bible calls the Father God, Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God and proclaims that there is one God. The only logical conclusion of the Godhead, while being true to Scripture is a Trinitarian view.

That's not the only logical conclusion, and the emergence of a multitude of doctrines over the years, doctrines that are currently considered heresies, proves that.

The Trinity is perfect love and unity. Without the Trinitarian view of the Godhead then salvation as describe in the Scriptures would not work.

Salvation is quite possible in modalism and arianism, just to name a couple of non-trinitarian views, too.

 

[JRT]

For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

 

[Josiah]

For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona".

Here's what I've read: Yes, the word "persona" CAN mean just such a mask.... and that was the original meaning of the word. It was the word used by Sabellius in the third century. It was this heretics' view that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were - to be overly simple - only jobs or offices or functions of the identical same. Rather like pointing out that Joe Biden is a president, husband and father - one man in 3 roles, one man wearing 3 hats, we simply are seeing the same ONE from 3 different perspectives in terms of function. So the term "persona" in that original theatre sense worked. It's a rationalistic THEORY entirely unsupported by Scripture.

This theory fell out of favor (as most did). Sabellius was soon unversally regarded as a heretic and this modalistic view largely repudiated. BUT (for reasons no one knows) the TERM 'persona' persisted, as a way to refer to the 3 individuallty - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - NOT the identical same. It is VERY clear that the Sabellian meaning was totally lost. By the 5th Century, we clearly see the term used in a way VERY different than how it was meant in Greek theatre, as obvious from the Athanasian Creed. Sometimes, words evolve... words can outlive their original meaning.

We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding.

Problem is, OUR "understanding" based on some baseless theory can be wrong.

These are merely our human images of God.

Yup. Not necessarily true at all. Like my Dad laughing at his dog growling to the back of the TV



.

 

[Andrew]

Ask a Oneness or Unitarian and they will serve up their own explanations for how Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God, the mystery of the Godhead is exactly why the Trinity creed exists, in short, all are divine and eternal and are one but it cant be properly explained using our tiny little ant brains.
Jews have their own unorthodox independent guesses on why God in genesis is in the plural. In the Quran, Allah even says "we" created all things and such n such, yet all three Abrahamic faiths consider themselves monotheistic.

 

[atpollard]

 

[JRT]

Holy Trinity is not a description of God, but a description of a human experience of God. The Holy Trinity is a doctrine, adopted by the Christian Church in the 4th century CE, as a way of processing and understanding their experience with God. It is a product of dualistic Greek thinking which separated God from humanity; the holy from the profane; the flesh from the spirit, and the body from the soul. That was a cultural mindset and no one in that era of history knew how to step outside that frame of reference. However, that frame of reference died in that period of history we call the Enlightenment, leaving modern Christians with the impossible task of fitting a 4th century doctrine into a 21st century world view out of which it does not come and to which it cannot speak. Does that mean that the Trinitarian experience is wrong? No, I don’t think it means that, but it does mean that the Trinitarian language, which we use as we to seek to relate the Trinitarian experience is simply irrelevant. ~ John Spong

 

[Lamb]

Holy Trinity is not a description of God, but a description of a human experience of God. The Holy Trinity is a doctrine, adopted by the Christian Church in the 4th century CE, as a way of processing and understanding their experience with God. It is a product of dualistic Greek thinking which separated God from humanity; the holy from the profane; the flesh from the spirit, and the body from the soul. That was a cultural mindset and no one in that era of history knew how to step outside that frame of reference. However, that frame of reference died in that period of history we call the Enlightenment, leaving modern Christians with the impossible task of fitting a 4th century doctrine into a 21st century world view out of which it does not come and to which it cannot speak. Does that mean that the Trinitarian experience is wrong? No, I don’t think it means that, but it does mean that the Trinitarian language, which we use as we to seek to relate the Trinitarian experience is simply irrelevant. ~ John Spong

Do you agree with John Spong?

 

[atpollard]

Do you understand the concept of The Trinity? I'm really frustrated because I don't. Most Christians I chat with act as if it's a simple, basic, 1st grade math exercise, but to me it seems more like a PhD-level quantum mechanics problem.

Am I Christianly-challenged or just regular stupid? I don't even know Who I'm praying to. I've probably prayed to the wrong God so far, and I probably still am. Being stupid makes me sad and angry. I feel like Penny from The Big Bang Theory.

So let’s break this down into bite sized pieces.

Jesus prayed to “God” (aka “My Father”).
So do you believe that the “Father” that Jesus prayed to is God?
(I do.)

The Gospel of John opens with a bunch of verses about “the word” being God and creating everything that was created. John then claims that “the word” became flesh and Jesus is that “word” that is God and created everything. Jesus himself said that “before Abraham was, I AM” (claiming He was the ‘I AM’ God of the OT) and that Jesus and the Father were “one”.
So do you believe that Jesus really is God like he said?
(I do.)

Genesis 1 opens up with the statement that the “Spirit of God” moved over something. 2 Peter 1:21 states that prophets were carried along by the Holy Spirit in what to speak. 1 Corinthians 6 talks about our bodies as ”temples of the Holy Spirit” ... only gods live in temples. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter equates lying to the Holy Spirit with lying to God Himself.
So do you believe that these scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is God and do you believe them?
(I do.)

In Mark 1:10-11 we get a clear event with all three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - together at the same time and irrefutable separate from one another. It is the baptism of Jesus where the Father speaks from Heaven, the Son rises out of the water and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove.
Do you believe that the Father, Son and Spirit are distinct like that event revealed?
(I do.)

Jesus said that He and the Father are one. The OT is full of clear statements that there is only one God ... “I am the LORD, and beside me there is no other.” At the same time, the ONE AND ONLY GOD says “Let US make man in OUR image”.
Do you find it impossible to completely reconcile ONE GOD existing as FATHER, SON and SPIRIT?
(I do.)

Yet somehow this does not upset me. Just the opposite, I find it a genuine source of comfort. Let’s get real, no human being would have come up with “One God” and “Father, Son and Spirit” as two absolute essential truths. Any person not completely insane would have come up with a far more reasonable story that people could relate to. Zeus and Hera fathered Athena is a story that makes sense to people.
On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for a God that exists outside of space and time, who is Spirit and commands matter into existence, to be not fully comprehensible to the creatures that He/They created.

There are lots of things in the universe that I don’t understand. I don’t understand how light can behave as a particle AND a wave. I don’t understand quantum physics and how something can be “yes“, “no”, “yes or no” and “yes and no” at the same time. I don’t really understand how Schroeder’s Cat can be alive and dead until the box is opened.

None of that prevents me from turning on a light.

Since God clearly exists, I am content that I can only understand some of the details about Him. It allows me to TRUST Him without needing to know EVERYTHING up front.
What about you, can you live with not understanding EVERYTHING?

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

No, I don't understand the Trinity, because that is a mystery that pertains to God. Everything I understand about God has been revealed to me in Holy Scripture. Mysteries like the Trinity and the mechanics of the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper are well beyond my comprehension. I believe in them, but my human mind can't grasp the intricacies.

 

[pinacled]

Yes:
I fully understand the baptism.

Are you ready lucian,

 

[atpollard]

@Lucian Hodoboc

It is all well and good to “disagree”, but could you be a little clearer on which part you disagree with?

So do you believe that the “Father” that Jesus prayed to is God?

So do you believe that Jesus really is God like he said?

So do you believe that these scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is God and do you believe them?

Do you believe that the Father, Son and Spirit are distinct like that event revealed?

Do you find it impossible to completely reconcile ONE GOD existing as FATHER, SON and SPIRIT?

Yet somehow this does not upset me. Just the opposite, I find it a genuine source of comfort.

 

[JRT]

Do you agree with John Spong?

Yes I do. As the Bible comments, a prophet is unrecognized in his own village. Were it not for him, I likely would no longer be a Christian.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

@Lucian Hodoboc

It is all well and good to “disagree”, but could you be a little clearer on which part you disagree with?

We're debating by using terminology without even having come into agreement about the semantics of the terms we use. I do not know what meaning you attribute to the terms: "God", "The Word", "Holy" and probably others. How can I address your questions if I don't understand them.

As for what part in particular I disagree with, it's the cop out that our minds were not designed to understand God. That flies right in the face of what we are told in Scripture. Jesus opened the eyes of the apostles when He explained the scriptures to them (both on the road to Emaus and in the house when He appeared to them after the resurrection). How did He make them understand if human minds were not created with the ability to understand God's nature? Scripture tells us that we are made in the image of God. Why would God create beings in His image, but design them without the ability to understand His nature? Why does He say in The Old Testament that His people perish for a lack of knowledge? Why did Jesus promise that we will find if we keep asking? Yes, He did tell the apostles that some things were not meant for them to know, such as the date of the future events and stuff like that, but, from the epistles in The New Testament I am left with the impression that the first Christians had a pretty clear idea about Who God The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit were, what the relationship between them was, and whether The Trinity, in the way we currently refer to it, existed. I think that we are perfectly able to understand God's nature, but we have been spiritually blinded by a series of factors (sin, satan, our fallen nature etc.).

 

[Lanman87]

That's not the only logical conclusion, and the emergence of a multitude of doctrines over the years, doctrines that are currently considered heresies, proves that.

Yes, but those other doctrines aren't being true to Scripture, as believed by the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians. I find it remarkable that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox all believe in the Trinitarian God. You would think that if God wasn't Trinitarian then at least one of the three major branches of Christianity would have rejected it. Instead, there are a few fringe groups who call themselves Christian that reject the Trinity, just as there has always been.

 

[atpollard]

We're debating by using terminology without even having come into agreement about the semantics of the terms we use. I do not know what meaning you attribute to the terms: "God", "The Word", "Holy" and probably others. How can I address your questions if I don't understand them.

Fair enough. For my part, I avoided any theological terms and used the terms that appear in scripture as they appear in the English translation of scripture ... so they mean exactly what the Bible says they mean (no more and no less).

If you have a question about the meaning of a specific verse of scripture, you should probably just ask about that.

 

[atpollard]

As for what part in particular I disagree with, it's the cop out that our minds were not designed to understand God. That flies right in the face of what we are told in Scripture. Jesus opened the eyes of the apostles when He explained the scriptures to them (both on the road to Emaus and in the house when He appeared to them after the resurrection). How did He make them understand if human minds were not created with the ability to understand God's nature? Scripture tells us that we are made in the image of God. Why would God create beings in His image, but design them without the ability to understand His nature? Why does He say in The Old Testament that His people perish for a lack of knowledge? Why did Jesus promise that we will find if we keep asking? Yes, He did tell the apostles that some things were not meant for them to know

You have asked and answered your own question. There are things about God that are knowable and Christains can know those things. There are things that about God that are unknowable and Christians may not know those things.

Shalom (peace and well being).

 

[hedrick]

As for what part in particular I disagree with, it's the cop out that our minds were not designed to understand God. That flies right in the face of what we are told in Scripture.

I agree. The doctrine of the Trinity was created by people to summarize what the Bible says about God. It isn't, and isn't claimed to be, a complete explanation of God. While we don't understand God fully, if a human statement isn't intelligible it's a defect in that statement. A statement may, of course say "these things are true even though we don't see how they can be true at the same time." But the things it asserts have to be intelligible or the statement isn't useful.

It's possible, of course, to have non-exact statements. We can give analogies or metaphors. But the doctrine of the Trinity isn't that. It contains specific statements. Those statements need to have meaning.