Survey reveals Evangelicals drifting from scripture

[Lamb]

A majority of Americans and nearly a third of evangelicals say Jesus was a “good teacher” but was not God, according to a new survey for Ligonier Ministries that was conducted by LifeWay Research.

Meanwhile, 65 percent of evangelicals believe “Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God” – a statement that conflicts with the Bible.

Christ’s deity and eternality are taught in such passages as John 1:1, John 8:58, Romans 9:5 and Hebrews 1:1-4.

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1/3 of Evangelicals don't believe Jesus is God? That's a horrible outcome and is showing that people are straying from Christianity while still claiming to be believers. What's also shocking is that they believe Jesus was created! It's the trend of moving away from creeds and the biblical truths that the creeds teach.

 

[hedrick]

There are certain questions that due to historical controversies take on meaning that the average person wouldn’t see. I doubt that 1/3 of the people were actually denying Jesus‘ divinity. Particularly since the question said Jesus and not Christ. You may not think it matters but many likely do. I think in common practice, Christ refers to the God-man, but for many people Jesus means the human person who in orthodox theology doesn't exist.

I‘ve looked at lots of surveys over the years. It’s really hard to know how participants understand questions. Small changes in wording can have surprising changes in responses.

 

[tango]

There are certain questions that due to historical controversies take on meaning that the average person wouldn’t see. I doubt that 1/3 of the people were actually denying Jesus‘ divinity. Particularly since the question said Jesus and not Christ. You may not think it matters but many likely do. I think in common practice, Christ refers to the God-man, but for many people Jesus means the human person who in orthodox theology doesn't exist.

I‘ve looked at lots of surveys over the years. It’s really hard to know how participants understand questions. Small changes in wording can have surprising changes in responses.

This is a really good point, it's remarkably easy to sway answers by very subtle changes to the wording of a question.

If I recall when the UK voted on whether or not to leave the EU it took some time before both sides even agreed on the exact wording of the question the people should be asked.

 

[pinacled]

This is a really good point, it's remarkably easy to sway answers by very subtle changes to the wording of a question.

If I recall when the UK voted on whether or not to leave the EU it took some time before both sides even agreed on the exact wording of the question the people should be asked.

Yes,
Many a poll, toll, tax, and census has been used to gauge warfare.
Interesting how a census began just before an inventive pandemic.

 

[Bluezone777]

I am not at all surprised by this actually. The scriptures speak of a great falling away that is to come at a future time and this is what it would entail in such a falling away. I imagine this is coming becasue much of what makes the Christian church is not Spirit led because the Holy Spirit is not present in a lot of what claims to be Christ's followers. They in turn get led away from the truth because no one could stay on the path without the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[hedrick]

I am not at all surprised by this actually. The scriptures speak of a great falling away that is to come at a future time and this is what it would entail in such a falling away. I imagine this is coming becasue much of what makes the Christian church is not Spirit led because the Holy Spirit is not present in a lot of what claims to be Christ's followers. They in turn get led away from the truth because no one could stay on the path without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Really? I suggest to you that many Evangelicals may know their Bible better than ancient Christological arguments. Asking whether Jesus is "the first and greatest being created by God" may have brought to mind Colossians calling him "the firstborn of all creation." You can argue that Col 1 doesn't quite say he was created, but I think the question is a close enough paraphrase that many people would recognize it as a reference to one of the key NT Christological texts. Later arguments convinced people of the importance of saying that Christ wasn't created. If the question were worded to suggest that context, you might have gotten a different answer than using wording that sounds like Col 1:15.

I would call this at best a trick question.

 

[hedrick]

Among Evangelicals here are answers I thought were interesting

• God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism and Islam. About even between agree and disagree.
• Jesus a great teacher, but he was not God. 30% agree
• Holy Spirit is force but it not a personal being. 46% agree
• Everyone sins a little, but most people are good by nature. 46%
• The Bible, like all sacred writings, contains helpful accounts of ancient myths but is not literally true. 81% disagree
• God will always reward true faith with material blessings in this life. 39%
• There will be a time when Jesus Christ returns to judge all the people who have lived. 97%
• Hell is a real place where certain people will be punished forever. 93% agree
• Sex outside of traditional marriage is a sin. 90% agree
• The Bible’s condemnation of homosexual behavior doesn’t apply today. 81%
• Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation. 100% agree [may be part of their definition of Evangelical, so 100% by definition]

So they agree about hell and sexual ethics, but about Jesus and the Holy Spirit not so much. That's sort of the mainline stereotype of Evangelicals. The oddest combination is the first and last questions. Only those who accept Christ as savior are saved, but God accepts members of all religions. This shows how much the wording of questions affect the answers.

None of the Christian subgroups believe that the Holy Spirit is a personal being. I checked both by faith group and by how often they attend. Is this just wording. Almost everyone believed in the Trinity with God as three persons. But they all knew that was the right answer.

I find it hard to see any ambiguity in the wording "Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God." Yet 30% of evangelicals agree, even though virtually all say they accept the Trinity. You've got to wonder what the Trinity means if Jesus isn't God and the Holy Spirit isn't personal.

For Catholics, Jesus was a great teacher is 57%, even for those who attend weekly or more. For mainline it's similar, though it's 46% for weekly or more. Mainline and Catholics also claim to believe in the Trinity.

Is it possible that the issue is Christology? Maybe people believe that the Logos is God, but not Jesus? Among mainline that might actually make sense. But for Evangelicals it seems odd.

The State of Theology

thestateoftheology.com

 

[Lamb]

Among Evangelicals here are answers I thought were interesting

• God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism and Islam. About even between agree and disagree.
• Jesus a great teacher, but he was not God. 30% agree
• Holy Spirit is force but it not a personal being. 46% agree
• Everyone sins a little, but most people are good by nature. 46%
• The Bible, like all sacred writings, contains helpful accounts of ancient myths but is not literally true. 81% disagree
• God will always reward true faith with material blessings in this life. 39%
• There will be a time when Jesus Christ returns to judge all the people who have lived. 97%
• Hell is a real place where certain people will be punished forever. 93% agree
• Sex outside of traditional marriage is a sin. 90% agree
• The Bible’s condemnation of homosexual behavior doesn’t apply today. 81%
• Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation. 100% agree [may be part of their definition of Evangelical, so 100% by definition]

So they agree about hell and sexual ethics, but about Jesus and the Holy Spirit not so much. That's sort of the mainline stereotype of Evangelicals. The oddest combination is the first and last questions. Only those who accept Christ as savior are saved, but God accepts members of all religions. This shows how much the wording of questions affect the answers.

None of the Christian subgroups believe that the Holy Spirit is a personal being. I checked both by faith group and by how often they attend. Is this just wording. Almost everyone believed in the Trinity with God as three persons. But they all knew that was the right answer.

I find it hard to see any ambiguity in the wording "Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God." Yet 30% of evangelicals agree, even though virtually all say they accept the Trinity. You've got to wonder what the Trinity means if Jesus isn't God and the Holy Spirit isn't personal.

For Catholics, Jesus was a great teacher is 57%, even for those who attend weekly or more. For mainline it's similar, though it's 46% for weekly or more. Mainline and Catholics also claim to believe in the Trinity.

Is it possible that the issue is Christology? Maybe people believe that the Logos is God, but not Jesus? Among mainline that might actually make sense. But for Evangelicals it seems odd.

The State of Theology

thestateoftheology.com

Thanks for researching further.

You brought up a lot of interesting points and what caused me to start this thread was that someone on a Lutheran Facebook group brought up the survey with the "Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God" belief that was too high of a percentage to be acceptable.

 

[hedrick]

I wish they had asked more on Christology. I think the alternative of Jesus as just a good teacher is a bit extreme. I'm surprised at the number that took it. But there are intermediates, such as God being uniquely present through Jesus. The answers suggest that that kind of idea might actually get a majority of all Christian groups.

But I've got to wonder why the Trinity is still accepted so universally.

The big shock for me is the number of people who attend weekly who accept non-traditional Christology. With most surveys, if you look at all Christians you see surprising views, but they get more conventional when you look at people who are very involved or committed. But Jesus as a good teacher gets 22% of Evangelical weekly attenders and 54% of other weekly attenders. And I believe this survey uses a very narrow definition of Evangelical.

More people accept non-traditional ideas on Jesus than accept homosexuality (though of course acceptance of homosexuality is still around 50/50 for the whole sample; it becomes smaller for weekly attenders and evangelicals). This is interesting, because it plays into the idea that religion is more about traditional culture than an actual commitment to Christ as Lord.

 

[pinacled]

Yes,
Many a poll, toll, tax, and census has been used to gauge warfare.
Interesting how a census began just before an inventive pandemic.

I suppose inventive is an overstatement.
The fact of the matter is that the pandemic along with polls is a manipulation used with missinformation.
A deflecting tact of actual motives.

With little effort a person can see through the lies purported on social media and other sources . Then easily find a conclusive motive known as mammon.

As for a poll of christian beliefs broadcasted on a social media platform.
It's a tact to smear the body of believers by the wolves in sheeps clothing I call televigilantes.
Even a child is able to see through their con art.

 

[tango]

Just to further complicate things, when questions refer to homosexuality there's always the question of whether they are referring to attraction to members of the same sex or actual sexual activity between members of the same sex.

 

[pinacled]

Just to further complicate things, when questions refer to homosexuality there's always the question of whether they are referring to attraction to members of the same sex or actual sexual activity between members of the same sex.

Dessirable forms of flesh are a way to consume thoughts if a soul is weak.

 

[pinacled]

Just to further complicate things, when questions refer to homosexuality there's always the question of whether they are referring to attraction to members of the same sex or actual sexual activity between members of the same sex.

Searching for faults reveals an entire grip.

 

[hedrick]

Just to further complicate things, when questions refer to homosexuality there's always the question of whether they are referring to attraction to members of the same sex or actual sexual activity between members of the same sex.

They tried to be clear: "The Bible’s condemnation of homosexual behavior doesn’t apply today," though it's hard to be sure whether people taking a survey understand the question as intended.

I don't think there's any ambiguity about whether orientation or behavior is intended. There is another problem, but I doubt it would affect answers. The most common view among those who accept homosexual sex is probably that the Bible doesn't prohibit it. Hence the question is like "have you stopped beating your wife," since it assumes that the Bible condemns it. I wonder whether the people writing the question realized it had this issue?

For all Christians, response was 40 for, 43 against. Consistent with other surveys, people who go to church more are more conservative. For weekly attenders, 30 / 60. Evangelicals are also more conservative, 11 / 81. Non evangelicals, 47 / 34. Non evangelicals who attend weekly, 32 / 47.

 

[tango]

They tried to be clear: "The Bible’s condemnation of homosexual behavior doesn’t apply today," though it's hard to be sure whether people taking a survey understand the question as intended.

I don't think there's any ambiguity about whether orientation or behavior is intended. There is another problem, but I doubt it would affect answers. The most common view among those who accept homosexual sex is probably that the Bible doesn't prohibit it. Hence the question is like "have you stopped beating your wife," since it assumes that the Bible condemns it. I wonder whether the people writing the question realized it had this issue?

For all Christians, response was 40 for, 43 against. Consistent with other surveys, people who go to church more are more conservative. For weekly attenders, 30 / 60. Evangelicals are also more conservative, 11 / 81. Non evangelicals, 47 / 34. Non evangelicals who attend weekly, 32 / 47.

The term "homosexual behavior" is pretty unambiguous.

I struggle to see anything in Scripture that says that having desires towards members of your own sex is inherently sinful - it seems to be it's a temptation that, in essence, is no different from me having desires towards women other than my wife. When the desires become behaviors is when the temptation becomes a sin.

One aspect of the way some Christians seem to believe Scripture applies that I really struggle to make any sense of, is the sense that heterosexuals are bound by rules relating to adultery, fornication etc and yet those who take a more liberal interpretation of Scripture as far as sexuality is concerned sometimes seem to think that homosexuals pretty much get a free pass to do whatever they want.

I often think that if someone wants to present a coherent reason for why they believe an interpretation of Scripture that differs from what is widely believed I'm open to hearing it - if you don't hear it you never know if it has any merit - but when something lacks consistency for no apparent reason (e.g. when every single jot and tittle of the rules continues to apply to heterosexuals but it's somehow "backward" and "bigoted" if any of the rules continue to apply to homosexuals) it's hard to take it seriously.

 

[hedrick]

One aspect of the way some Christians seem to believe Scripture applies that I really struggle to make any sense of, is the sense that heterosexuals are bound by rules relating to adultery, fornication etc and yet those who take a more liberal interpretation of Scripture as far as sexuality is concerned sometimes seem to think that homosexuals pretty much get a free pass to do whatever they want.

I would say that the same rules apply. As you say, it would seem like a mistake not to say this.

But at the same time (and I think before homosexuality became a widespread issue in the Church) there was a general broadening of acceptable behavior for heterosexuals. I don't think adultery is acceptable in either case, but a large fraction of Christians don't seem to have a serious objection to sex among unmarried people, though generally promiscuity is not accepted. No one is prepared to come out and say sex is OK for unmarried people, but my impression is that most Christians tell their kids they'd prefer them not to have sex, but if they do, here are the expectations ... I don't think this is limited to groups that accept homosexuality.

 

[tango]

I would say that the same rules apply. As you say, it would seem like a mistake not to say this.

But at the same time (and I think before homosexuality became a widespread issue in the Church) there was a general broadening of acceptable behavior for heterosexuals. I don't think adultery is acceptable in either case, but a large fraction of Christians don't seem to have a serious objection to sex among unmarried people, though generally promiscuity is not accepted. No one is prepared to come out and say sex is OK for unmarried people, but my impression is that most Christians tell their kids they'd prefer them not to have sex, but if they do, here are the expectations ... I don't think this is limited to groups that accept homosexuality.

I think you're right there, even groups that condemn homosexuality seem to be more liberal regarding heterosexual activity outside of marriage. Not all groups by any means but outlooks certain seem to be becoming more liberal.

I remember in the mid 80s a friend of mine made some comment about how his sister was moving in with her boyfriend and (horror) they weren't married. He clearly disapproved of the arrangement, the general consensus was that this sort of thing Was Not Done. This wasn't a Christian group - the secular consensus back then was that such things weren't appropriate. Less than 35 years later and we've somehow ended up in a place where just about anything goes and objecting to anything is a good way to get labeled a bigot.

 

[atpollard]

As someone once said, the theology of most modern Christians is “an inch deep and a mile wide”.

 

[Lanman87]

While I don't know the particulars of the survey, the reported results do not surprise me. As an American Evangelical I can honestly say most of the teaching I've been subject to in the past 20+ years had very little Christological teaching. We are told that God is a Trinity and leave it at that. The Biblical teaching of the Trinity and the significance of the Trinity is rarely discussed.

Instead we are taught a bunch of "What to do" as Christians but very little about "Why"? Why we believe what we believe and why do what we do.

Personally, I believe that is why many evangelicals are moving to either Catholicism or Reformed Traditions. Both ask the "tough questions" that American Evangelicalism either gives lip service to or outright ignores. Emotional services and experiences are great and all, but most people eventually long for something deeper.

I hope that we Evangelicals learn from this at start to put a new emphasis on the historic and universal doctrines such as the Trinity and why it is important.

 

[pinacled]

While I don't know the particulars of the survey, the reported results do not surprise me. As an American Evangelical I can honestly say most of the teaching I've been subject to in the past 20+ years had very little Christological teaching. We are told that God is a Trinity and leave it at that. The Biblical teaching of the Trinity and the significance of the Trinity is rarely discussed.

Instead we are taught a bunch of "What to do" as Christians but very little about "Why"? Why we believe what we believe and why do what we do.

Personally, I believe that is why many evangelicals are moving to either Catholicism or Reformed Traditions. Both ask the "tough questions" that American Evangelicalism either gives lip service to or outright ignores. Emotional services and experiences are great and all, but most people eventually long for something deeper.

I hope that we Evangelicals learn from this at start to put a new emphasis on the historic and universal doctrines such as the Trinity and why it is important.

[ "Personally, I believe that is why many evangelicals are moving to either Catholicism or Reformed Traditions."]

That's an interesting tell in your above statement.

Firstly: the original definition of evangelical denotes the protestant denominations. All of which have a specific creed that separates them from roman Catholicism as a whole.

Secondly: it has only been in recent decades that televigilantism(olsteen, td jake's, creflo dollar, etc) has occurred. Something of which has been currently missidentifed as evangelical.

Thirdly: it has only been the catholic leaders who have openly accepted worldly positions in defiance of The Holy Sriptures and sound doctrine.

I reiterate my point about misinformation from wolves in sheeps clothing.
It was the current Pope that reached out to Copeland in a televised event for all to see first hand.
In the Pope's address to a known fraud and crook he (the pope) compared himself and his catholism to joseph sold to egypt.
Cryptic as that may be.
The arrogance is apparent to all with a sense of justice in the spirit.