Predestination vs. Free Will

[pinacled]

Apparently he does ... Just like Joseph Smith and his special knowledge about Kolob.

Horticulture

12 Bible verses about Sheep Shearing

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

verb

1. cut off the top and branches of (a tree) to encourage new growth at the top.
   "it was the practice of local authorities to pollard these trees on a regular basis"

noun

1. 1.
   a tree whose top and branches have been pollarded.
   "young trees have grown up between the pollards"
   
   
2. 2.
   ARCHAIC
   an animal, e.g., a sheep or deer, that has lost its horns or cast its antlers.

 

[pinacled]

“Judah” “and his brothers” ... “Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? ‘Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh.’ And his brothers listened [to him.]”

Something for yourself and other readers to consider is the 20 peices of silver likened to the hebrew gematria of bet, brit, or beit and also the kaf.

The Hebrew Alphabet

The Hebrew Alphabet, along with the names of the consonants, their numerical values, and audio pronunciation, including various Hebrew Script Styles.

www.hebrew4christians.com

20 has a place in the foundation of the mishkan(tabernacle).
Exodus 26
Though yhdh(judah) conspiried of his own free will his progeny was predestined to be valued beyond 20 silver pieces.
I'm certain that the readers have heard of the exchange.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

To answer your first question about Rueben.
The Lord clearly states that the first born are apart of The Lord of Host strength.

ג רְאוּבֵן בְּכֹרִי אַתָּה, כֹּחִי וְרֵאשִׁית אוֹנִי--יֶתֶר שְׂאֵת, וְיֶתֶר עָז.

3 Reuben, thou art my first-born, my might, and the first-fruits of my strength; the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power.

To answer your second question of how the price of yosefs bondage is known and recorded.
Simple,
Oral Torah.
Also there is the aspect of when the brothers were reunited with yosef that gives credence to yosef informing his brethren of the details of his unexpected disapearance.
Including the details of tribes and price.

Remember the brothers shock when yosef revealed himself . And also the testing yosef instigated in order to investigate his brothers?
Personally I found such an account exonerating yosefs brethren of direct involvement of his being sold to slavery.

ג וַיֹּאמֶר יוֹסֵף אֶל-אֶחָיו אֲנִי יוֹסֵף, הַעוֹד אָבִי חָי; וְלֹא-יָכְלוּ אֶחָיו לַעֲנוֹת אֹתוֹ, כִּי נִבְהֲלוּ מִפָּנָיו.

3 And Joseph said unto his brethren: 'I am Joseph; doth my father yet live?' And his brethren could not answer him; for they were affrighted at his presence.

Philippians 4:8
[" In conclusion, brothers, focus your thoughts on what is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovable or admirable, on some virtue or on something praiseworthy "]


Blessings Always

Readers,

Be vigilant

 

[pinacled]

@pinacled you made the claim that the brothers repented of their evil by not committing the murder but scriptures do not make that claim and that's what @atpollard is asking...for scriptural proof. Reuben's changing his mind to sell the brother is not proof since greed from the sale of their brother might have been a stronger evil in their hearts. We just don't know.

The detail of reubens warning that disproves the assertion you gave concerning his motives.
And also disproves Pollard's false accusation of the israelite brethren.
What is plainly and painfully clear is that the brethren thought yosef was dead and that they were being punished for their past actions.

יז וַיֶּאֱסֹף אֹתָם אֶל-מִשְׁמָר, שְׁלֹשֶׁת יָמִים.	17 And he put them all together into ward three days.
יח וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵהֶם יוֹסֵף בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁלִישִׁי, זֹאת עֲשׂוּ וִחְיוּ; אֶת-הָאֱלֹהִים, אֲנִי יָרֵא.	18 And Joseph said unto them the third day. 'This do, and live; for I fear God:
יט אִם-כֵּנִים אַתֶּם--אֲחִיכֶם אֶחָד, יֵאָסֵר בְּבֵית מִשְׁמַרְכֶם; וְאַתֶּם לְכוּ הָבִיאוּ, שֶׁבֶר רַעֲבוֹן בָּתֵּיכֶם.	19 if ye be upright men, let one of your brethren be bound in your prison-house; but go ye, carry corn for the famine of your houses;
כ וְאֶת-אֲחִיכֶם הַקָּטֹן תָּבִיאוּ אֵלַי, וְיֵאָמְנוּ דִבְרֵיכֶם וְלֹא תָמוּתוּ; וַיַּעֲשׂוּ-כֵן.	20 and bring your youngest brother unto me; so shall your words be verified, and ye shall not die.' And they did so.
כא וַיֹּאמְרוּ אִישׁ אֶל-אָחִיו, אֲבָל אֲשֵׁמִים אֲנַחְנוּ עַל-אָחִינוּ, אֲשֶׁר רָאִינוּ צָרַת נַפְשׁוֹ בְּהִתְחַנְנוֹ אֵלֵינוּ, וְלֹא שָׁמָעְנוּ; עַל-כֵּן בָּאָה אֵלֵינוּ, הַצָּרָה הַזֹּאת.	21 And they said one to another: 'We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the distress of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.'
כב וַיַּעַן רְאוּבֵן אֹתָם לֵאמֹר, הֲלוֹא אָמַרְתִּי אֲלֵיכֶם לֵאמֹר אַל-תֶּחֶטְאוּ בַיֶּלֶד--וְלֹא שְׁמַעְתֶּם; וְגַם-דָּמוֹ, הִנֵּה נִדְרָשׁ.	22 And Reuben answered them, saying: 'Spoke I not unto you, saying: Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore also, behold, his blood is required.'

Proof of repentance begins in ch 42 of genesis and continues further through the following chapters.
One such validation is the brothers honest report along with the money returned upon their second visit.
Another Is the brothers obeisance to yosef.

כד וַיָּבֵא הָאִישׁ אֶת-הָאֲנָשִׁים, בֵּיתָה יוֹסֵף; וַיִּתֶּן-מַיִם וַיִּרְחֲצוּ רַגְלֵיהֶם, וַיִּתֵּן מִסְפּוֹא לַחֲמֹרֵיהֶם.	24 And the man brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave them water, and they washed their feet; and he gave their asses provender.
כה וַיָּכִינוּ, אֶת-הַמִּנְחָה, עַד-בּוֹא יוֹסֵף, בַּצָּהֳרָיִם: כִּי שָׁמְעוּ, כִּי-שָׁם יֹאכְלוּ לָחֶם.	25 And they made ready the present against Joseph's coming at noon; for they heard that they should eat bread there.
כו וַיָּבֹא יוֹסֵף הַבַּיְתָה, וַיָּבִיאּוּ לוֹ אֶת-הַמִּנְחָה אֲשֶׁר-בְּיָדָם הַבָּיְתָה; וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ-לוֹ, אָרְצָה.	26 And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed down to him to the earth.
כז וַיִּשְׁאַל לָהֶם, לְשָׁלוֹם, וַיֹּאמֶר הֲשָׁלוֹם אֲבִיכֶם הַזָּקֵן, אֲשֶׁר אֲמַרְתֶּם--הַעוֹדֶנּוּ, חָי.	27 And he asked them of their welfare, and said: 'Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spoke? Is he yet alive?'
כח וַיֹּאמְרוּ, שָׁלוֹם לְעַבְדְּךָ לְאָבִינוּ--עוֹדֶנּוּ חָי; וַיִּקְּדוּ, וישתחו (וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ).	28 And they said: 'Thy servant our father is well, he is yet alive.' And they bowed the head, and made obeisance.
כט וַיִּשָּׂא עֵינָיו, וַיַּרְא אֶת-בִּנְיָמִין אָחִיו בֶּן-אִמּוֹ, וַיֹּאמֶר הֲזֶה אֲחִיכֶם הַקָּטֹן, אֲשֶׁר אֲמַרְתֶּם אֵלָי; וַיֹּאמַר, אֱלֹהִים יָחְנְךָ בְּנִי.	29 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw Benjamin his brother, his mother's son, and said: 'Is this your youngest brother of whom ye spoke unto me?' And he said: 'God be gracious unto thee, my son.'
ל וַיְמַהֵר יוֹסֵף, כִּי-נִכְמְרוּ רַחֲמָיו אֶל-אָחִיו, וַיְבַקֵּשׁ, לִבְכּוֹת; וַיָּבֹא הַחַדְרָה, וַיֵּבְךְּ שָׁמָּה.	30 And Joseph made haste; for his heart yearned toward his brother; and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.
לא וַיִּרְחַץ פָּנָיו, וַיֵּצֵא; וַיִּתְאַפַּק--וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׂימוּ לָחֶם.	31 And he washed his face, and came out; and he refrained himself, and said: 'Set on bread.'
לב וַיָּשִׂימוּ לוֹ לְבַדּוֹ, וְלָהֶם לְבַדָּם; וְלַמִּצְרִים הָאֹכְלִים אִתּוֹ, לְבַדָּם--כִּי לֹא יוּכְלוּן הַמִּצְרִים לֶאֱכֹל אֶת-הָעִבְרִים לֶחֶם, כִּי-תוֹעֵבָה הִוא לְמִצְרָיִם.	32 And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, that did eat with him, by themselves; because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
לג וַיֵּשְׁבוּ לְפָנָיו--הַבְּכֹר כִּבְכֹרָתוֹ, וְהַצָּעִיר כִּצְעִרָתוֹ; וַיִּתְמְהוּ הָאֲנָשִׁים, אִישׁ אֶל-רֵעֵהוּ.	33 And they sat before him, the firstborn according to his birthright, and the youngest according to his youth; and the men marvelled one with another.
לד וַיִּשָּׂא מַשְׂאֹת מֵאֵת פָּנָיו, אֲלֵהֶם, וַתֵּרֶב מַשְׂאַת בִּנְיָמִן מִמַּשְׂאֹת כֻּלָּם, חָמֵשׁ יָדוֹת; וַיִּשְׁתּוּ וַיִּשְׁכְּרוּ, עִמּוֹ.	34 And portions were taken unto them from before him; but Benjamin's portion was five times so much as any of theirs. And they drank, and were merry with him.

 

[pinacled]

@pinacled you made the claim that the brothers repented of their evil by not committing the murder but scriptures do not make that claim and that's what @atpollard is asking...for scriptural proof. Reuben's changing his mind to sell the brother is not proof since greed from the sale of their brother might have been a stronger evil in their hearts. We just don't know.

Proof of repentance begins in ch 42 of genesis and continues further through the following chapters.
One such validation is the brothers honest report along with the money returned upon their second visit along with the number of visitations.
Another Is the brothers obeisance as 11 stars(sons of israel) to yosef.

Also there is the detail of reubens warning that disproves the assertion you gave concerning his motives

כד וַיָּבֵא הָאִישׁ אֶת-הָאֲנָשִׁים, בֵּיתָה יוֹסֵף; וַיִּתֶּן-מַיִם וַיִּרְחֲצוּ רַגְלֵיהֶם, וַיִּתֵּן מִסְפּוֹא לַחֲמֹרֵיהֶם.	24 And the man brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave them water, and they washed their feet; and he gave their asses provender.
כה וַיָּכִינוּ, אֶת-הַמִּנְחָה, עַד-בּוֹא יוֹסֵף, בַּצָּהֳרָיִם: כִּי שָׁמְעוּ, כִּי-שָׁם יֹאכְלוּ לָחֶם.	25 And they made ready the present against Joseph's coming at noon; for they heard that they should eat bread there.
כו וַיָּבֹא יוֹסֵף הַבַּיְתָה, וַיָּבִיאּוּ לוֹ אֶת-הַמִּנְחָה אֲשֶׁר-בְּיָדָם הַבָּיְתָה; וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ-לוֹ, אָרְצָה.	26 And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed down to him to the earth.
כז וַיִּשְׁאַל לָהֶם, לְשָׁלוֹם, וַיֹּאמֶר הֲשָׁלוֹם אֲבִיכֶם הַזָּקֵן, אֲשֶׁר אֲמַרְתֶּם--הַעוֹדֶנּוּ, חָי.	27 And he asked them of their welfare, and said: 'Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spoke? Is he yet alive?'
כח וַיֹּאמְרוּ, שָׁלוֹם לְעַבְדְּךָ לְאָבִינוּ--עוֹדֶנּוּ חָי; וַיִּקְּדוּ, וישתחו (וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ).	28 And they said: 'Thy servant our father is well, he is yet alive.' And they bowed the head, and made obeisance.
כט וַיִּשָּׂא עֵינָיו, וַיַּרְא אֶת-בִּנְיָמִין אָחִיו בֶּן-אִמּוֹ, וַיֹּאמֶר הֲזֶה אֲחִיכֶם הַקָּטֹן, אֲשֶׁר אֲמַרְתֶּם אֵלָי; וַיֹּאמַר, אֱלֹהִים יָחְנְךָ בְּנִי.	29 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw Benjamin his brother, his mother's son, and said: 'Is this your youngest brother of whom ye spoke unto me?' And he said: 'God be gracious unto thee, my son.'
ל וַיְמַהֵר יוֹסֵף, כִּי-נִכְמְרוּ רַחֲמָיו אֶל-אָחִיו, וַיְבַקֵּשׁ, לִבְכּוֹת; וַיָּבֹא הַחַדְרָה, וַיֵּבְךְּ שָׁמָּה.	30 And Joseph made haste; for his heart yearned toward his brother; and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.
לא וַיִּרְחַץ פָּנָיו, וַיֵּצֵא; וַיִּתְאַפַּק--וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׂימוּ לָחֶם.	31 And he washed his face, and came out; and he refrained himself, and said: 'Set on bread.'
לב וַיָּשִׂימוּ לוֹ לְבַדּוֹ, וְלָהֶם לְבַדָּם; וְלַמִּצְרִים הָאֹכְלִים אִתּוֹ, לְבַדָּם--כִּי לֹא יוּכְלוּן הַמִּצְרִים לֶאֱכֹל אֶת-הָעִבְרִים לֶחֶם, כִּי-תוֹעֵבָה הִוא לְמִצְרָיִם.	32 And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, that did eat with him, by themselves; because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
לג וַיֵּשְׁבוּ לְפָנָיו--הַבְּכֹר כִּבְכֹרָתוֹ, וְהַצָּעִיר כִּצְעִרָתוֹ; וַיִּתְמְהוּ הָאֲנָשִׁים, אִישׁ אֶל-רֵעֵהוּ.	33 And they sat before him, the firstborn according to his birthright, and the youngest according to his youth; and the men marvelled one with another.
לד וַיִּשָּׂא מַשְׂאֹת מֵאֵת פָּנָיו, אֲלֵהֶם, וַתֵּרֶב מַשְׂאַת בִּנְיָמִן מִמַּשְׂאֹת כֻּלָּם, חָמֵשׁ יָדוֹת; וַיִּשְׁתּוּ וַיִּשְׁכְּרוּ, עִמּוֹ.	34 And portions were taken unto them from before him; but Benjamin's portion was five times so much as any of theirs. And they drank, and were merry with him.

 

[pinacled]

What verse in Genesis makes it “obviously clear” that “Reuben was the authoritative decision maker” ?
Where does Judah speak of talking to Reuben before they decide?
How do the brother’s know how much one band sold Joseph to another band for if they did not get the money?


Your rewriting of the events to make the brothers guiltless when the Holy Bible and the testimony of Joseph clearly show them guilty of many sins in the events leading up to Joseph’s enslavement, is a mockery of the actual words of scripture. It says what happened, you are just tap dancing around the facts to edit history. Joseph’s words to his brothers about what they meant for evil, God meant for good becomes meaningless nonsense if you revise the story so they did no evil. Joseph is talking like a fool and God is robbed of the credit for His sovereignty even over apparent evil events.

Sorry, but I will not be apologizing for defending scripture and what it actually says to honor the Sovereignty of God over the events in the story of Joseph. You can pretend the brothers were all innocent victims if you want, but I will stand by the word and praise the God who acts according to the council of His own will. Jacob screwed up his family and God did something extraordinary to heal three generations of broken relationships.

I imagined that you would not repent of your false accusations.
Even so I leave room for wrath.
You falsely accused the brethren of selling their brother yosef. They did no such thing.
They all presumed he was dead and that his blood guilt was on their heads.

יח וַיִּגַּשׁ אֵלָיו יְהוּדָה, וַיֹּאמֶר בִּי אֲדֹנִי, יְדַבֶּר-נָא עַבְדְּךָ דָבָר בְּאָזְנֵי אֲדֹנִי, וְאַל-יִחַר אַפְּךָ בְּעַבְדֶּךָ: כִּי כָמוֹךָ, כְּפַרְעֹה.	18 Then Judah came near unto him, and said: 'Oh my lord, let thy servant, I pray thee, speak a word in my lord's ears, and let not thine anger burn against thy servant; for thou art even as Pharaoh.
יט אֲדֹנִי שָׁאַל, אֶת-עֲבָדָיו לֵאמֹר: הֲיֵשׁ-לָכֶם אָב, אוֹ-אָח.	19 My lord asked his servants, saying: Have ye a father, or a brother?
כ וַנֹּאמֶר, אֶל-אֲדֹנִי, יֶשׁ-לָנוּ אָב זָקֵן, וְיֶלֶד זְקֻנִים קָטָן; וְאָחִיו מֵת, וַיִּוָּתֵר הוּא לְבַדּוֹ לְאִמּוֹ וְאָבִיו אֲהֵבוֹ.	20 And we said unto my lord: We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.

 

[pinacled]

Question for all readers;

How many times did the brothers of yosef visit egypt till they realized their brother was alive?

 

[pinacled]

I imagined that you would not repent of your false accusations.
Even so I leave room for wrath.
You falsely accused the brethren of selling their brother yosef. They did no such thing.
They all presumed he was dead and that his blood guilt was on their heads.

יח וַיִּגַּשׁ אֵלָיו יְהוּדָה, וַיֹּאמֶר בִּי אֲדֹנִי, יְדַבֶּר-נָא עַבְדְּךָ דָבָר בְּאָזְנֵי אֲדֹנִי, וְאַל-יִחַר אַפְּךָ בְּעַבְדֶּךָ: כִּי כָמוֹךָ, כְּפַרְעֹה.	18 Then Judah came near unto him, and said: 'Oh my lord, let thy servant, I pray thee, speak a word in my lord's ears, and let not thine anger burn against thy servant; for thou art even as Pharaoh.
יט אֲדֹנִי שָׁאַל, אֶת-עֲבָדָיו לֵאמֹר: הֲיֵשׁ-לָכֶם אָב, אוֹ-אָח.	19 My lord asked his servants, saying: Have ye a father, or a brother?
כ וַנֹּאמֶר, אֶל-אֲדֹנִי, יֶשׁ-לָנוּ אָב זָקֵן, וְיֶלֶד זְקֻנִים קָטָן; וְאָחִיו מֵת, וַיִּוָּתֵר הוּא לְבַדּוֹ לְאִמּוֹ וְאָבִיו אֲהֵבוֹ.	20 And we said unto my lord: We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.

With verse 20 I wonder if any readers felt and understood in spirit the connotation that yosef was first hearing of his mother's passing?

Imagine for a moment learning of both your mother's death and at the same time learning of a sibling that you've never seen.

A true heart as far as i can see is how yosef proceeded in his decisions.
Eventually bringing and having ya'akov his father at his side to comfort him in his last days.
Something of which is a memorable blessing of increase in yosefs mothers name passed on to efrayim and manasseh.
Something of which the prophet moshe was instructed of concerning three tribes arranged in the west.
And is also further clarified by the Holy One who was to come after moshe.

Blessings Always in the spirit of Torah and strength of forgiveness.

 

[pinacled]

As for a charity of fire.


[ “Be careful not to parade your acts of tzedakah in front of people in order to be seen by them! If you do, you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So, when you do tzedakah, don’t announce it with trumpets to win people’s praise, like the hypocrites in the synagogues and on the streets. Yes! I tell you, they have their reward already! 3 But you, when you do tzedakah, don’t even let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. 4 Then your tzedakah will be in secret; and your Father, who sees what you do in secret, will reward you."]

There is a place in the fluidity of time that reveals a certain place of blessings in the heart.
A place while facing west a son or daughter will find where two sons of yosef sit on either side of their father's brother.

A predestination only the Father knows who sits on the left or right of binyamin.

Blessed be The Holy One.