Predestination vs. Free Will

[NewCreation435]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

It is without dispute that the scripture mentioned Predestination. Some verses that talk about it are Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 2:7 and Ephesians 1:5,11. IN other places the words chosen or that God foreknew is mentioned such as in Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:17

Roman 8:7 also lets us know that our fleshy mind is hostile to God and won't come to God on it's own.

John 10:28 Jesus also says that the sheep that hear His voice come to Him and he gives them eternal life and nobody is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

a few thoughts about this. I wonder why it is that churches either avoid completely the subject of predestination and/or seem to mention nothing else but predestination. It seems to go either one way or the other. I also wonder why those who teach about predestination also think that they are among those who are predestined. Nobody ever thinks or says that they are pretty sure that they are not predestined to heaven. I also struggle with the idea that if God choses some to be saved, then that means that he choses others to be lost and that they will not respond to the gospel their whole lives and are doomed to go to hell when they die. The other side of the coin, I guess. Because it is clear that in and of ourselves that we would never want to come to God on our own. It is also clear in our society that you see people who never think about God or His will and only think about themselves.

 

[Josiah]

In JUSTIFICATION, I hold to the doctrine of election.

I reject the "double predestination" of radical Calvinism and the "free will" of the Arminianists.



.

 

[tango]

I would reply but sadly it appears I was predestined not to write anything useful.

 

[Lamb]

Because it is clear that in and of ourselves that we would never want to come to God on our own

That's because the will is not free when it comes to our spirituality. It's God who chooses (John 15:16) which means that the will doesn't have a part in our salvation for eternal life. Our will is bound to sin which means that those who reject the Savior damn themselves.

We are predestined because of God. But being damned is man's fault.

 

[pinacled]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

It is without dispute that the scripture mentioned Predestination. Some verses that talk about it are Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 2:7 and Ephesians 1:5,11. IN other places the words chosen or that God foreknew is mentioned such as in Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:17

Roman 8:7 also lets us know that our fleshy mind is hostile to God and won't come to God on it's own.

John 10:28 Jesus also says that the sheep that hear His voice come to Him and he gives them eternal life and nobody is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

a few thoughts about this. I wonder why it is that churches either avoid completely the subject of predestination and/or seem to mention nothing else but predestination. It seems to go either one way or the other. I also wonder why those who teach about predestination also think that they are among those who are predestined. Nobody ever thinks or says that they are pretty sure that they are not predestined to heaven. I also struggle with the idea that if God choses some to be saved, then that means that he choses others to be lost and that they will not respond to the gospel their whole lives and are doomed to go to hell when they die. The other side of the coin, I guess. Because it is clear that in and of ourselves that we would never want to come to God on our own. It is also clear in our society that you see people who never think about God or His will and only think about themselves.

From the Lord to the prophet yirmiyahu.

ד וַיְהִי דְבַר-יְהוָה, אֵלַי לֵאמֹר.	4 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying:
ה בְּטֶרֶם אצורך (אֶצָּרְךָ) בַבֶּטֶן יְדַעְתִּיךָ, וּבְטֶרֶם תֵּצֵא מֵרֶחֶם הִקְדַּשְׁתִּיךָ: נָבִיא לַגּוֹיִם, נְתַתִּיךָ.	5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
ו וָאֹמַר, אֲהָהּ אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, הִנֵּה לֹא-יָדַעְתִּי, דַּבֵּר: כִּי-נַעַר, אָנֹכִי. {ס}	6 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak; for I am a child.' {S}
ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלַי, אַל-תֹּאמַר נַעַר אָנֹכִי: כִּי עַל-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר אֶשְׁלָחֲךָ, תֵּלֵךְ, וְאֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוְּךָ, תְּדַבֵּר.	7 But the LORD said unto me: say not: I am a child; for to whomsoever I shall send thee thou shalt go, and whatsoever I shall command thee thou shalt speak.

I personally come from a school of thought that teaches the faithful and circumcised of heart about the spirit of prophecy that is the testimony of Yeshua(jesus)Salvation.
Precept upon precept leaving vain philosophies behind.
Colossians 2:8

There is also an importance concerning the birth of a nation spoken of as efrayim(efraim) regarding the leadership from the son of nun Having The Lord of Host going before him.

Blessings be The Holy One

 

[JRT]

Without free will you no longer have a Christianity worthy of Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

Without free will you no longer have a Christianity worthy of Jesus.

Care to elaborate?

 

[JRT]

Care to elaborate?

Yes.

A large part of Christian philosophy is built upon the concept of our personal responsibility for the evil that each one of us is responsible for. I can fully agree with that. I also realize that there are passages in the Bible that God as predestined or is even responsible for the evil in this world. This is a clear conflict or even a full blown contradiction. When Biblical history is examined in its full context we begin to recognize that it is a completely human history. To me, a God that micromanages our eternal destiny in advance is actually a kind of monster. The image comes to mind of the little kid pulling the wings and legs off of a grasshopper. I know that a horrible image but it is not the image of the God I worship. And, yes, I have heard or read all the arguments to the contrary and I reject them.

 

[pinacled]

Yes.

A large part of Christian philosophy is built upon the concept of our personal responsibility for the evil that each one of us is responsible for. I can fully agree with that.

I also realize that there are passages in the Bible that God as predestined or is even responsible for the evil in this world.

This is a clear conflict or even a full blown contradiction. When Biblical history is examined in its full context we begin to recognize that it is a completely human history. To me, a God that micromanages our eternal destiny in advance is actually a kind of monster. The image comes to mind of the little kid pulling the wings and legs off of a grasshopper. I know that a horrible image but it is not the image of the God I worship. And, yes, I have heard or read all the arguments to the contrary and I reject them.

Be careful of where your thoughts tread.
And be sure to proof read your post.

In the second block you attributed evil To The Most High.
Something of which is a tell on your spiritual standing revealed in the 3rd block I have cited.

Be assured ,
God is good.

Blessings Always

 

[tango]

Be careful of where your thoughts tread.
And be sure to proof read your post.

In the second block you attributed evil To The Most High.
Something of which is a tell on your spiritual standing revealed in the 3rd block I have cited.

Be assured ,
God is good.

Blessings Always

I read the post as rejecting a particular stance because it would require attributing evil to God.

The aspect I constantly come back to is when Jesus called the disciples. The call was simple, "follow me". No obligation, no dragging people along kicking and screaming, simply a call to follow that the called was free to accept or decline.

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained. And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

 

[pinacled]

I read the post as rejecting a particular stance because it would require attributing evil to God.

The aspect I constantly come back to is when Jesus called the disciples. The call was simple, "follow me". No obligation, no dragging people along kicking and screaming, simply a call to follow that the called was free to accept or decline.

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained. And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

Excellent perspective tango.

I agree with your assessment of 4 rivers teaching of living Waters from a single source.

A call from waters has never changed.
The fruits from a son or daughter leaning on The Lord in the spirit of knowledge and understanding reveal wisdom.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Excellent perspective tango.

I agree with your assessment of 4 rivers teaching of living Waters from a single source.

A call from waters has never changed.
The fruits from a son or daughter leaning on The Lord in the spirit of knowledge and understanding reveal wisdom.

I read the post as rejecting a particular stance because it would require attributing evil to God.

The aspect I constantly come back to is when Jesus called the disciples. The call was simple, "follow me". No obligation, no dragging people along kicking and screaming, simply a call to follow that the called was free to accept or decline.

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that

God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained.

And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

In answer to the second to last block I cited.
Never was sin preordained.
And Holy writ is clear about such a false accussation.
"In the image of,___man and woman were created...."


The choice of sin was first mentioned in the instance of cain warned by God.

 

[pinacled]

From the Lord to the prophet yirmiyahu.

ד וַיְהִי דְבַר-יְהוָה, אֵלַי לֵאמֹר.	4 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying:
ה בְּטֶרֶם אצורך (אֶצָּרְךָ) בַבֶּטֶן יְדַעְתִּיךָ, וּבְטֶרֶם תֵּצֵא מֵרֶחֶם הִקְדַּשְׁתִּיךָ: נָבִיא לַגּוֹיִם, נְתַתִּיךָ.	5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
ו וָאֹמַר, אֲהָהּ אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, הִנֵּה לֹא-יָדַעְתִּי, דַּבֵּר: כִּי-נַעַר, אָנֹכִי. {ס}	6 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak; for I am a child.' {S}
ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלַי, אַל-תֹּאמַר נַעַר אָנֹכִי: כִּי עַל-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר אֶשְׁלָחֲךָ, תֵּלֵךְ, וְאֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוְּךָ, תְּדַבֵּר.	7 But the LORD said unto me: say not: I am a child; for to whomsoever I shall send thee thou shalt go, and whatsoever I shall command thee thou shalt speak.

I personally come from a school of thought that teaches the faithful and circumcised of heart about the spirit of prophecy that is the testimony of Yeshua(jesus)Salvation.
Precept upon precept leaving vain philosophies behind.
Colossians 2:8

There is also an importance concerning the birth of a nation spoken of as efrayim(efraim) regarding the leadership from the son of nun Having The Lord of Host going before him.

Blessings be The Holy One

"Blessed are the children............."

 

[pinacled]

I read the post as rejecting a particular stance because it would require attributing evil to God.

The aspect I constantly come back to is when Jesus called the disciples. The call was simple, "follow me". No obligation, no dragging people along kicking and screaming, simply a call to follow that the called was free to accept or decline.

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained. And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

What do know you of snow melt from a single mount flowing as 4 rivers with names.

You may perhaps know 1 of 4 rivers where repentance is offered .

But to recognize the other 3 and source is another matter where faithful steps mark the feet of peacemakers.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

I read the post as rejecting a particular stance because it would require attributing evil to God.

The aspect I constantly come back to is when Jesus called the disciples. The call was simple, "follow me". No obligation, no dragging people along kicking and screaming, simply a call to follow that the called was free to accept or decline.

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained. And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

Do you know know the 4 consonant letters of The Lords Holy name?

 

[Josiah]

Without free will you no longer have a Christianity worthy of Jesus.

With free will in justification, we no longer have Christianity. If one enters heaven because of what SELF does, then SELF is the Savior or self... and Jesus no longer saves anyone and isn't the Savior - and thus Christianity is destoryed and is nothing more than all the other religions.



.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
God's free will trumps everybody else's free will.

For example: Esau was born first, but God stepped in and transferred the rank of
firstborn to Jacob. (Gen 25:23)

In another case: Joseph was minded to dump Mary, but God stepped in and
ordered him to not only keep her, but also to give her son a name. (Matt 1:18-21)
_

 

[atpollard]

A constant problem with the idea that our every move is predestined is that it removes the notion of free will. It requires that God preordained that we would sin, that he put us into a situation where we had no choice but to sin, and then he turned around and required sacrifices to atone for the very sin he preordained. And, ultimately, it requires a god (small g intentional) willing to punish people with eternal damnation for the choices he made for them.

If Joseph’s brothers had not sold him into slavery, there would have been no Passover Lamb to teach us what the coming Christ would do. Did God plan on Joseph’s brother’s doing evil, or did God just get lucky?

 

[atpollard]

Do you know know the 4 consonant letters of The Lords Holy name?

YHWH?

 

[pinacled]

YHWH?

Incorrect.
There is no w in hebrew