Universal Atonement

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Hammster

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It's been addressed. Read through the thread again :)

I've been quoted. And it's been danced around. But nobody has said why people in hell, where sinners are punished for their sins, can be justly there if Christ paid for their sins.


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Lamb

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I have answered you a few times. Remember that the bible is filled with paradoxes. Law and Gospel need to be properly distinguished. Those who believe will have eternal life because of Christ's death for the forgiveness of sins. Those who reject that forgiveness are punished for their sins because they do not want the forgiveness. To them God judges according to their deeds that they have done as scripture states. I gave you the verses for it even.
 

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If they can be punished for sins, then in no way could Christ have paid for those sins. It actually means something to say Christ died for sins. It's called a propitiaion in Romans 3 and 1 John 2. That's a real thing. That's God's wrath being satisfied. To punish someone in hell for a sin which God is no longer angry about makes absolutely no sense.


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Romans 3:3-4 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”[a]

God is faithful but man is not. Men turn away from God and reject what was won for all. We cannot call God a liar but man is a liar.

Christ died for all, otherwise you could not tell someone His sins are forgiven. Those sins were forgiven before you were born. God didn't wait for you to have faith in order to forgive you, but since God gives faith as a gift, you can believe and benefit from it. Faith grasps onto what is true and the truth is that we are redeemed. Those who do not believe do not reap the benefits. That is no fault of God's but man's. To those, God judges according to their deeds.



If they can be punished for sins, then in no way could Christ have paid for those sins. It actually means something to say Christ died for sins. It's called a propitiaion in Romans 3 and 1 John 2. That's a real thing. That's God's wrath being satisfied. To punish someone in hell for a sin which God is no longer angry about makes absolutely no sense.


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Hammster

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Okay, let's get smaller here. Has God's wrath been satisfied against sin, per 1 John 2:2?


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Okay, let's get smaller here. Has God's wrath been satisfied against sin, per 1 John 2:2?


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Yes. Please remember what I said about paradoxes though.

Let me ask you this. When Adam & Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, did not the whole world fall or only some? So it makes sense that God died for all and not some.
 

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Wanted to add that I might not be on as much after this :) Just a heads up! I'll try to check back tomorrow when I have a chance.
 

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What does it mean that His wrath is satisfied?


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It means the sacrifice was accepted.

Those who do not receive by grace through faith the forgiveness won...do not receive it.
 

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It means the sacrifice was accepted.

Those who do not receive by grace through faith the forgiveness won...do not receive it.

What does it mean that it was accepted? Was God's wrath appeased by Christ's sacrifice?


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What does it mean that it was accepted? Was God's wrath appeased by Christ's sacrifice?


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God's wrath was appeased by Christ's sacrifice, yet for those who refuse to receive his forgiveness, the wrath still exists. The gift will only benefit those who receive.
 

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God's wrath was appeased by Christ's sacrifice, yet for those who refuse to receive his forgiveness, the wrath still exists. The gift will only benefit those who receive.

Then it wasn't appeased. It cannot be both.


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Then it wasn't appeased. It cannot be both.


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Yes. Paradoxes exist from the beginning. Both are true and God constantly has proclaimed them to us side by side.

Is Jesus 100% man? or 100% God? He's both. Paradoxes. They are throughout the bible.
 

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Yes. Paradoxes exist from the beginning. Both are true and God constantly has proclaimed them to us side by side.

Is Jesus 100% man? or 100% God? He's both. Paradoxes. They are throughout the bible.

What you are presenting is a contradiction, not a paradox.


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What you are presenting is a contradiction, not a paradox.


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Not at all. Scripture states that both are true. So they are.

Christ died for the whole world 1 John 2:2 (take note of the word "whole" there), 2 Cor. 5:15, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Timothy 2:6

Not everyone will benefit from His death on the cross. Those who believe will have eternal life. John 3:15, John 6:47

Those who reject, the wrath is still upon him. John 3:36

See also Matthew 25:46, John 3:18, 2 Thess. 1:9, Hebrews 3:18-19, Romans 2:9-10
 

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There's scripture that says Jesus is man. There's scripture that says He's God. That's a paradox.
There's no scripture that says God's wrath is satisfied then ceases to be satisfied. If there was, then there'd be a paradox.


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I just gave you scripture :)
 

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He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2

Since John uses world in a variety of ways, there nothing to say that this means every single person, especially in context. Christ is not an advocate for everyone.


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