Creeds fall short when it comes to the Mystery of the GodHead

[Josiah]

IMO, there's a lot of misunderstanding about creeds.... and maybe just dishonesty.


Some modern American Baptists and/or Evangelical may SAY "I believe in no creed but the Bible." But of course, they just proclaimed a creed. A creed is a statement of what is belived... this person believes the Bible is a statement of personal faith. That's a creed. They may SAY "Jesus is Lord" or "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus is the Son of God" "The Bible is what I'm holding" - all creeds.

Some modern American Baptist and/or Evangelical may say, "Creeds aren't authoritative, the Bible is!" Well, then, they just used a creed authoritatively! They are affirming that a BOOK, a corpus of written material, is "THE BIBLE" (and they MAY also mean it is the verbally inspired, inerrant, normative words of God). There's nothing in the Bible that states what the Bible is, that identifies what is and is not "The Bible" (in fact that word never appears in it). The Baptist holds up his floppy, leather-bound, Scofield shorted KJV (the edition with a bunch of books removed) and says "THIS (pointed to his floppy book" IS THE BIBLE! Quite a creed! One made NO WHERE in the Bible. Indeed, his creed (this floppy, leather-bound, Millienialistic Scofield, stripped King James book) is the Bible and the Authority IS both a creed AND it is being used normatively, it is being used ABOVE the Bible itself.... Bible actually is subjected to his creed, the Bible is given authority solely by another authority - himself.

Until recently, Christians were honest and truthful enough to admit we DO have beliefs (creeds), including the one that holds that there's a corpus of written material we hold to be divinely inspired, inerrant and normative. And SOME of those creeds ARE historic and ecumenical (in constrast to zillions are that just personal, individual, quite new relatively speaking) and SOME are used normatively, at least for certain things (one must hold to some in order to be a professor of theology at a denomination's seminary.... one must hold that there is a Bible (and it's that shorted KJV book grandma gave me when I was 8) in order to be a Baptist preacher.... one most hold that prayer exists in order to lead the prayer ministry group at Calvary Baptist (both General and Particular) Church, all cases of where a CREED is made NORMATIVE - required to be accepted.



"I believe in no creed but the Bible" may be a popular creed among modern, radically relativistic Christians. But it is a creed and thus (according to them) must be rejected, and the Bible they claim is actually the result of their own creed used normatively; their creed ("this is the Bible") is used normatively to require we accept THAT corpus of material. No one is fooled. It just makes them sound.... silly or dishonest.

Creed are not wrong (they are ALL OVER the Bible, ALL Christians use HUNDREDS of them). And every Christian uses some authoritatively/normatively (athough some lie about that).






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[NewCreation435]

@atpollard;






So, Baptists do not allow any requirement that your ministers are Christians? Affirm the Trinity? Accept the Bible? None is required to believe that Jesus is the Savior?

Isn't saying something about the Bible a creed? If that creed IS authoritative, then don't Baptists have an authoritative creed which is used normatively? Perhaps it's just that Baptists are forbidden to tell a preacher what is right or wrong teaching, as long as that minister claims it's biblical?






Historic/orthodox Protestants accept ONE norma normans - the black and white words of the Bible. But we DO accept that there are beliefs that can be made required (used normatively) - for example, Jesus is the Savior. AND we hold that there are things that are normed BY the norm (in epistemology, this is called "norma normata") for example the Two natures of Christ or the Trinity or the authority of Scripture. Evidently, Baptists reject this.





Okay, so GENERAL Baptists have creeds and regard them as norma normata AND used them normatively/authoritatively? A professor at a GENERAL BAPTIST owned/operated seminary would be required to teach that Jesus is the Savior AND that salavation is available for all AND that all may choose that. Some HUGE creeds there! Or are you saying Baptists don't permit such regulation, a GENERAL BAPTIST may (if he/she so chooses) personally believe that but no baptist professor, pastor, teacher MUST affirm those things, they are welcome to teach that Jesus is a myth and each saves self by their own good works? Which is it? Do GENERAL BAPTISTS have beliefs or not? Are they allowed to require such (use those creeds normatively) or are they forbidden to? Can the president of Dallas Seminary be a Muslim or it is required that the one in that position MUST affirm the creeds of the GENERAL BAPTISTS - the things GENERAL BAPTISTS hold?






I see. So a pastor in the PARTICULAR BAPTIST church is free to dogmatically preach that babies are to be Baptized, that Baptism saves.... he is welcome to preach that Christ is literally present in the Sacrament and that most Christians will spend time in Purgatory and that buying Indulgences will shorten the time in Purgatory because PARTICULAR BAPTISTS cannot require anything, everyone is free to follow their own individual conscience and this preacher is just doing that. If the church wanted to outst him as their pastor, the PARTICULAR BAPTISTS would forbid that, no one can be asked (much less required) to go against conscience?





In the view of WHOM?

I can defend infant baptism and real presence from Scripture (and history and tradition and creeds) so I'd be welcomed to be a professor of dogmatics at any Baptist seminary? If not, then what CREED am I being subjected to, one that says infants can't do their part in the salvation of themselves and thus cannot be baptized? One that says "the meaning of is is is not" so Christ says it is NOT his body and blood? Wait.... everyone is accountable to one thing - their own conscience, no one is PERMITTED to restrict that, so since I'm going by my conscience and no Baptist is permitted to ask me to violate that, then I'm right cuz I'm following my conscience ... and since there is no Creed (just the words of the Bible) and the Bible SAYS "Baptism now saves you" and "this IS my body" thus I can be a professor of theology at any Baptist seminary, no Baptist is allowed to hinder that?

Odd. And it seems very chaotic and impractical. And extremely relativistic. But good to know: all Baptist preachers are permitted and welcomed to teach ANYTHING WHATSOEVER - as long as it's his/her own conscience and according to himself/herself, it's biblical (like infant baptism and real presence in the Eucharist). Now I see the reason for your comment about Baptist theology being all over the place!




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One of the difficulties I have when I read your comments about Baptist is that your talking about a fairly diverse and wide group of people. There are many different types of Baptist and we are sometimes far away from each other in doctrinal issues.
In the Southern Baptist Convention, the seminaries and colleges that are funded by the Convention have the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000 that professors and those who work for the schools are asked to sign. And while they don't affirm a creed, if you don't sign that then you will not be allowed to work at a Southern Baptist school. It has been that way for the last twenty years when a more conservative group of Baptist took control of the Southern Baptist convention. I'm not saying that is the way it should be, I'm just saying that is the way it is now.

 

[Josiah]

One of the difficulties I have when I read your comments about Baptist is that your talking about a fairly diverse and wide group of people. There are many different types of Baptist and we are sometimes far away from each other in doctrinal issues.

I directed it to apollard (as you noted) and was responding to what HE CLAIMED is the practice among Baptists.

'Tween you and me, I suspect he's inaccurate. I suspect Baptists welcome and use creeds no less than any others, and OFTEN use them in a normative/authoritative way. But he claimed differently and so I responded to his claims.

In the Southern Baptist Convention, the seminaries and colleges that are funded by the Convention have the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000 that professors and those who work for the schools are asked to sign.

I suspect you are absolutely correct. I'd be shocked if that were not true. SOOOO, the SBC has creeds - and uses them authoritatively/normatively. Just like every other denomination and Christian. The claim that Baptists have no statements of their faith... that they "tolerate" ALL views.... that as long as their teaching aligns with their personal individual conscience and they feel it's biblical - then everything is A-OK... sincerely, I doubt that's actually the epistemology of Baptists (of ANY of the various kinds).

if you don't sign that then you will not be allowed to work at a Southern Baptist school.

I suspect YOU are correct. So, not only does the SBC have creeds but use them NORMATIVELY - one MUST agree to "work" at a Baptist school. So Jane, who is Catholic and that aligns with her own personal conscience and holds that all 2867 points of the Catholic Catechism are biblical would likely NOT "sign" some distinctively BAPTIST creed (that might say only those over the age of X can be baptized and that should be by immersion) would not be hired as the Bible teacher at Calvary Baptist School. There are creeds (I suspect many of them) and some ARE used normatively/authoritatively. As I suspect and you seem to confirm - but not as apollard noted.


In reality, Christians DO have creeds..... and DO use them normatively. One I hear a lot from some who reject creeds is: "I believe (Credo) the Bible is the only authority." Problem is: That's a creed, no less than others. And if that's imposed in any way (say, their pastor can't reject the Bible as stupid myth - and use the Koran as his authority) - then that creed is authoritative.

And in reality, Christians DO embrace Tradition. When one says, "I believe in the Bible" (a creed) they are embracing Tradition since the Bible does not identify itself, it's TRADITION (and not any verse) that says James IS Scripture but 1 Clement is NOT. Tradition says that, no Scripture does. And the list goes on and on and on and on - things that "Evangelical" probably believes and hears from the Baptist pulpit.... but is a view formed by and through Tradition.

"I believe in no creed but the Bible" may be a popular creed among modern, radically relativistic Christians. But it is a creed and thus (according to them) must be rejected, and the Bible they claim is actually the result of their own creed used normatively; their creed ("this is the Bible") is used normatively to require we accept THAT corpus of material. No one is fooled. It just makes them sound.... silly or dishonest.

Creed are not wrong (they are ALL OVER the Bible, ALL Christians use HUNDREDS of them). And every Christian uses some authoritatively/normatively (athough some lie about that).


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[atpollard]

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[atpollard]

Good grief ...

The BAPTISTS acrostic was developed in the early 1960s by L. Duane Brown when he was pastor of Pine Valley Baptist Church, Pine Valley, N.Y. Brown was a graduate of Baptist Bible Seminary, where he studied theology with Paul R. Jackson. Brown’s acrostic has roots in Paul Jackson’s summary of the Baptist distinctives, published in Doctrine of the Church (1956) and his later full length book, The Doctrine and Administration of the Church (1968).


It is very important to understand that not all Baptist folks worship in the same style, but all "True Baptists" believe in these eight Baptist Distinctives! It is what makes us Baptist. These teachings may be remembered by association them with the letters that form the word "Baptists."


Biblical Authority - The Bible is the final authority in all matters of belief and practice because the Bible is inspired by God and bears the absolute authority of God Himself.

Whatever the Bible affirms, Baptists accept as true. No human opinion or decree of any church group can override the Bible. Even creeds and confessions of faith which attempt to articulate the theology of Scripture do not carry Scripture's inherent authority. 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21


Autonomy of the Local Church - The local church is an independent body accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the church. All human authority for governing the local church resides within the local church itself. Thus the church is autonomous, or self-governing. No religious hierarchy outside the local church may dictate a church's beliefs or practices. Autonomy does not mean isolation. A Baptist church may fellowship with other churches around mutual interests and in an associational tie, but a Baptist church cannot be a "member" of any other body.

Colossians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5, 19, 23


Priesthood of the Believer - "Priest" is defined as "one authorized to perform the sacred rites of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and God." Every believer today is a priest of God and may enter into His presence in prayer directly through our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. No other mediator is needed between God and people. As priests, we can study God's Word, pray for others, and offer spiritual worship to God. We all have equal access to God-whether we are a preacher or not. 1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 5:9, 10


Two Ordinances - The local church should practice two ordinances: (1) baptism of believers by immersion in water, identifying the individual with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and (2) the Lord's Supper, or communion, commemorating His death for our sins. Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32


Individual Soul Liberty - Every individual, whether a believer or an unbeliever, has the liberty to choose what he believes is right in the religious realm. No one should be forced to assent to any belief against his will. Baptist have always opposed religious persecution. However, this liberty does not exempt one from responsibility to the Word of God or from accountability to God Himself. Romans 14:5, 12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9



Saved, Baptized Church Membership -Local church membership is restricted to individuals who give a believable testimony of personal faith in Christ and have publicly identified themselves with Him in believer's baptism. When the members of a local church are believers, a oneness in Christ exists, and the members can endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Acts 2:41-47; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 4:3.


Two Offices - The Bible mandates only two offices in the church-pastor and deacon.

The three terms - "pastor," "elder," and "bishop," or "overseer" - all refer to the same office. The two offices of pastor and deacon exist within the local church, not as a hierarchy outside or over the local church. I Timothy 3:1-13; Acts 20:17-38; Philippians 1:1


Separation of Church and State - God established both the church and the civil government, and He gave each its own distinct sphere of operation. The government's purposes are outlined in Romans 13:1-7 and the church's purposes in Matthew 28:19-20. Neither should control the other, nor should there be an alliance between the two.

Christians in a free society can properly influence government towards righteousness, which is not the same as a denomination or group of churches controlling the government. Matthew 22:15-22; Acts 15:17-29

 

[Josiah]

Biblical Authority - The Bible is the final authority in all matters of belief and practice because the Bible is inspired by God and bears the absolute authority of God Himself.

Whatever the Bible affirms, Baptists accept as true. No human opinion or decree of any church group can override the Bible. Even creeds and confessions of faith which attempt to articulate the theology of Scripture do not carry Scripture's inherent authority. 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21


Autonomy of the Local Church - The local church is an independent body accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the church. All human authority for governing the local church resides within the local church itself. Thus the church is autonomous, or self-governing. No religious hierarchy outside the local church may dictate a church's beliefs or practices. Autonomy does not mean isolation. A Baptist church may fellowship with other churches around mutual interests and in an associational tie, but a Baptist church cannot be a "member" of any other body.

Colossians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5, 19, 23


Priesthood of the Believer - "Priest" is defined as "one authorized to perform the sacred rites of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and God." Every believer today is a priest of God and may enter into His presence in prayer directly through our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. No other mediator is needed between God and people. As priests, we can study God's Word, pray for others, and offer spiritual worship to God. We all have equal access to God-whether we are a preacher or not. 1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 5:9, 10


Two Ordinances - The local church should practice two ordinances: (1) baptism of believers by immersion in water, identifying the individual with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and (2) the Lord's Supper, or communion, commemorating His death for our sins. Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32


Individual Soul Liberty - Every individual, whether a believer or an unbeliever, has the liberty to choose what he believes is right in the religious realm. No one should be forced to assent to any belief against his will. Baptist have always opposed religious persecution. However, this liberty does not exempt one from responsibility to the Word of God or from accountability to God Himself. Romans 14:5, 12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9



Saved, Baptized Church Membership -Local church membership is restricted to individuals who give a believable testimony of personal faith in Christ and have publicly identified themselves with Him in believer's baptism. When the members of a local church are believers, a oneness in Christ exists, and the members can endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Acts 2:41-47; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 4:3.


Two Offices - The Bible mandates only two offices in the church-pastor and deacon.

The three terms - "pastor," "elder," and "bishop," or "overseer" - all refer to the same office. The two offices of pastor and deacon exist within the local church, not as a hierarchy outside or over the local church. I Timothy 3:1-13; Acts 20:17-38; Philippians 1:1


Separation of Church and State - God established both the church and the civil government, and He gave each its own distinct sphere of operation. The government's purposes are outlined in Romans 13:1-7 and the church's purposes in Matthew 28:19-20. Neither should control the other, nor should there be an alliance between the two.

Christians in a free society can properly influence government towards righteousness, which is not the same as a denomination or group of churches controlling the government. Matthew 22:15-22; Acts 15:17-29

Thanks for so powerfully prove my point.

Fortunately, as you prove, Baptists have many creeds! And often employ them authoritatively/normatively.

The claims you made aren't the case. As you choose to prove.

I counted 20 creeds in your post, then stopped counting. And you indicate these creeds are often authoritative and normative.

See posts 21 and 23






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[atpollard]

Thanks for so powerfully prove my point.

Fortunately, as you prove, Baptists have many creeds! And often employ them authoritatively/normatively.

The claims you made aren't the case. As you choose to prove.

I counted 20 creeds in your post, then stopped counting. And you indicate these creeds are often authoritative and normative.

See posts 21 and 23






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Whatever.

 

[Bluezone777]

I don't see what the fuss is over the use of creeds in this context. If a creed you hold as authoritative can have every claim made in it shown to be sourced from scripture then to see someone deny it would be essentially denying the Bible as truth and if you accept the creed means you agree with the bible in regards to what parts of the Bible that the creed references. It wouldn't be making the creed above the Bible but equal to it since it makes no claim that scripture itself doesn't make. For someone to prove that you are making a creed have more authority then the Bible would ultimately have to demonstrate that the creed in question includes a claim made in the creed that's not supported by the Bible.

 

[hobie]

Nah what you want to do is challenge its validity which is why your thread got moved here. This board clearly states that you are to agree with it if you want to post in the Christian theology forum. Seeing as you entertain writings of people who don't agree with it suggests you don't either hence why your thread is here. Still though, no one's stopping you from talking about it as you can clearly continue discussing the topic so not sure what your problem is exactly.

No, I have no issue with it, but its clear I was taken out of the Christian section for other reasons. When you bring light that others might not want to see, sometimes they do things so they remain blind to truth. Even Jesus saw this when talking to the Pharisees...

John 9:40-41 King James Version (KJV)
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Lamb]

No, I have no issue with it, but its clear I was taken out of the Christian section for other reasons. When you bring light that others might not want to see, sometimes they do things so they remain blind to truth. Even Jesus saw this when talking to the Pharisees...

John 9:40-41 King James Version (KJV)
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The reason you were removed from the Christian Theology forum permissions is because you do not adhere to the rules that the site owner set up for that forum which states that you must adhere to the Nicene Creed. Since you are anti-creedal you obviously do not adhere to it and when our moderator asked you early on when you first registered if you adhered to it and you said yes then you were breaking the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor.

 

[Josiah]

The reason you were removed from the Christian Theology forum permissions is because you do not adhere to the rules that the site owner set up for that forum which states that you must adhere to the Nicene Creed. Since you are anti-creedal you obviously do not adhere to it and when our moderator asked you early on when you first registered if you adhered to it and you said yes then you were breaking the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor.

Simple.

I'm struggling to understand why it's not understood.

Thank you, Lamm, for your service!

Josiah





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[hobie]

The reason you were removed from the Christian Theology forum permissions is because you do not adhere to the rules that the site owner set up for that forum which states that you must adhere to the Nicene Creed. Since you are anti-creedal you obviously do not adhere to it and when our moderator asked you early on when you first registered if you adhered to it and you said yes then you were breaking the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor.

No, as I made clear, I adhere to it. So that is not the issue. Now if it cannot be discussed, then that is a stipulation that needs to be made if it exists.