RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Doug]

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revealed to Paul, was the mystery, that the sacrificial death of Jesus was a ransom for all who would believe, both Jew and Gentile.

This mystery was not made known to the prophets of the old testament scriptures, neither to the twelve disciples. This mystery was hid in God and not made known to any before being revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5 Ephesians 3:9).

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What was made known in Matthew and Mark above, was that Christ gave his life to ransom many, not all. Christ gave his life to ransom Israel alone, the many. Christ redeemed the iniquities of Israel committed under the old testament (Hebrews 9:15).

Only the mystery revealed the ransom was for all, and was only testified in due time, when revealed to Paul.

 

[Particular]

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revealed to Paul, was the mystery, that the sacrificial death of Jesus was a ransom for all who would believe, both Jew and Gentile.

This mystery was not made known to the prophets of the old testament scriptures, neither to the twelve disciples. This mystery was hid in God and not made known to any before being revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5 Ephesians 3:9).

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What was made known in Matthew and Mark above, was that Christ gave his life to ransom many, not all. Christ gave his life to ransom Israel alone, the many. Christ redeemed the iniquities of Israel committed under the old testament (Hebrews 9:15).

Only the mystery revealed the ransom was for all, and was only testified in due time, when revealed to Paul.

Please exegete the passages surrounding the lone verses you quote. Then, get back to us with your opinion.

 

[Josiah]

many is a part of all.



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[hedrick]

Personally I think the whole controversy over limited atonement is silly. Pretty much everyone who isn't a universalist (which I am on even-numbered days) agrees that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for everyone, but is effective only for those with faith. Whether you choose to say he died for everyone or the saved is more a matter of choice of language than substance.

 

[Josiah]

Personally I think the whole controversy over limited atonement is silly. Pretty much everyone who isn't a universalist (which I am on even-numbered days) agrees that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for everyone, but is effective only for those with faith. Whether you choose to say he died for everyone or the saved is more a matter of choice of language than substance.

Point understood, but IMO there is a difference, a critical one.

IF I accept that Jesus died for all, then I can be 100% certain He died for me. And thus, my faith is grasping something that exists for me. But if Jesus only died for a FEW, a minority (and simple odds are, probably not me) then how can I know (or even guess) that I'M among those for whom atonement has been made? I may have faith in Christ but that's entirely useless if Christ has nothing to offer me.

Universal has that one (IMO critical) advantage: I know Jesus died for ME (since I'm included in EVERYONE). If He only died for some minority of people (and evidently God didn't list who's in that number) then no one can actually know if Jesus did a thing for them, has anything to offer them.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours....


Josiah




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[Particular]

Point understood, but IMO there is a difference, a critical one.

IF I accept that Jesus died for all, then I can be 100% certain He died for me. And thus, my faith is grasping something that exists for me. But if Jesus only died for a FEW, a minority (and simple odds are, probably not me) then how can I know (or even guess) that I'M among those for whom atonement has been made? I may have faith in Christ but that's entirely useless if Christ has nothing to offer me.

Universal has that one (IMO critical) advantage: I know Jesus died for ME (since I'm included in EVERYONE). If He only died for some minority of people (and evidently God didn't list who's in that number) then no one can actually know if Jesus did a thing for them, has anything to offer them.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours....


Josiah




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Two flaws in your statement:
First, Jesus atonement is for all who believe. What that number is...only God knows. There is no need to worry, God's got this.
Second, your whole premise is man-centered. You look at Jesus atonement and make it all about your self. How will I know. If it's not atonement for all humans how can I know he atoned for me? Me, me, me. Stop being so self-centered.
God has given you the gift of faith. Of course he has atoned for your sins. Person's who God has not given faith remain in rebellion. Their sins are not atoned for. It's that simple.

 

[Josiah]

First, Jesus atonement is for all who believe.

Well, so you CLAIM.

What that number is...only God knows.

Thus the HORROR, the TERROR of your claim.

Because as you imply, there is no list of who Jesus died for, and since you hold that's only SOME (probably a minority!) there is no way to even remotely GUESS if it includes me. Or you. Or anyone else. The whole Gospel is likely irrelevant because odds are, I'm excluded. The Cross is irrelevant, because Jesus likely didn't die for me. Or you. Faith is irrelevant since it may be apprehending NOTHING because there's nothing for ME. In your view, it is in fact cruel to preach the Gospel because you are holding out these wonderful things that probably aren't for them, in your view, it is likely God did NOTHING for them. And you have no idea who IS appropriate to preach to and who is not.

What a horrible doctrine. Not only unbiblical, not only rejected by every Christian for over 1500 years and nearly all for an additional 500 years, but a HORRIBLE doctrine.



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[Particular]

Well, so you CLAIM.






Thus the HORROR, the TERROR of your claim.

Because as you imply, there is no list of who Jesus died for, and since you hold that's only SOME (probably a minority!) there is no way to even remotely GUESS if it includes me. Or you. Or anyone else. The whole Gospel is likely irrelevant because odds are, I'm excluded. The Cross is irrelevant, because Jesus likely didn't die for me. Or you. Faith is irrelevant since it may be apprehending NOTHING because there's nothing for ME. In your view, it is in fact cruel to preach the Gospel because you are holding out these wonderful things that probably aren't for them, in your view, it is likely God did NOTHING for them. And you have no idea who IS appropriate to preach to and who is not.

What a horrible doctrine. Not only unbiblical, not only rejected by every Christian for over 1500 years and nearly all for an additional 500 years, but a HORRIBLE doctrine.



.

So the Bible states.

Why is it a horror that God knows? We can be confident because God has graciously given us faith.

I have no idea why you consider God's Sovereign Authority to choose to be a horrible thing and a horrible doctrine.

It seems to me that you are desperate for control and thus want authority over God so you can live by your rules rather than be wholely dependent upon the Sovereign will of the King. Why does trusting God cause you such horror?

 

[Particular]

Biblical evidence that Christ died for those who believe. Not for those who don't believe.

Galatians 1:3-5,15-16 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.


But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

Ephesians 1:4-6 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 2:1,4-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 3:11-12 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

I have no idea why @Josiah would consider limited atonement so heinous when the Bible clearly teaches it.

 

[Josiah]

Biblical evidence that Christ died for those who believe.

Yup. Although you provided no indication of such.

Not for those who don't believe.

Wrong. Which is why you searched but could find not one Scripture that teaches this horrible invention of a tiny few radical Calvinists in the 16th Century.

I have no idea why Josiah would consider limited atonement so heineous

Read post #7.




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[Josiah]

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.



Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."




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[Particular]

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.



Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."




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The all isn't universal humanity, Josiah. You know this. If it is universal humanity then humanity is universally saved. You have such a massive contradiction in your interpretation that it becomes humorous. Yet, you're going to die on that hill fighting for your contradiction.

 

[Josiah]

The all isn't universal humanity, Josiah. You know this. If it is universal humanity then humanity is universally saved.

... only if we accept your complete denial of Sola Fide and of any role of faith. But I hold to John 3:16, I hold to the biblical justification of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I don't accept your "faith is useless, faith does nothing" view.

See 1 John 2:2. Read the words. Believe. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See Hebrews 2:9 Read the words. Believe. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See First Corinthians 5:14 Read the words. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See First Timothy 2:6. Read the words. Stop contradicting and denying them.

Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."

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Still waiting




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[bbas 64]

... only if we accept your complete denial of Sola Fide and of any role of faith. But I hold to John 3:16, I hold to the biblical justification of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I don't accept your "faith is useless, faith does nothing" view.

See 1 John 2:2. Read the words. Believe. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See Hebrews 2:9 Read the words. Believe. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See First Corinthians 5:14 Read the words. Stop contradicting and denying them.

See First Timothy 2:6. Read the words. Stop contradicting and denying them.






Still waiting




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Good Day, Josiah

I Guess I will start this off:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

What is your understanding of the term used here to propitiate, I hope we can agree that this definition is at least accurate:

Thayer Definition:
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

I hope we can also agree the contextual "our" sins, refers to the writer "I" and "my little children" .
So what does it mean when the propitiation is made for our sins, would you agree the the Just wrath of God against "our Sins" is appeased,
therefore He atones for those sins of the "ours" .

So how do you conclude that he dies for every one with out distinction ( our, my little children) in the same way?

If there are 10 sins in the world in total... and only 10 people in the world

Person 1-9 commits a single sin that numbered 1-9, but the 10th person commits all 10 sins, how may people does Jesus have to atone for the sins of the whole world?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Josiah]

Good Day, Josiah

I Guess I will start this off:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

What is your understanding of the term used here to propitiate, I hope we can agree that this definition is at least accurate:

Thayer Definition:
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

I hope we can also agree the contextual "our" sins, refers to the writer "I" and "my little children" .
So what does it mean when the propitiation is made for our sins, would you agree the the Just wrath of God against "our Sins" is appeased,
therefore He atones for those sins of the "ours" .

So how do you conclude that he dies for every one with out distinction ( our, my little children) in the same way?

If there are 10 sins in the world in total... and only 10 people in the world

Person 1-9 commits a single sin that numbered 1-9, but the 10th person commits all 10 sins, how may people does Jesus have to atone for the sins of the whole world?

In Him,

Bill

I edited your post to embolden and put into red font the point I'd make. The verse does not say "He is the propitiation for a minority of the world, a few in the world."


Good to see you Bill! As some 15 years ago (!!!!) at the "website-that-shall-not-be-named," we'll likely agree 95% of the time.... and disagree on some of TULIP... and I'll appreciate your intelligent, articulate posts and even more your approach and heart. Good to have you here at CH!



Josiah




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[bbas 64]

I edited your post to embolden and put into red font the point I'd make. The verse does not say "He is the propitiation for a minority of the world, a few in the world."


Good to see you Bill! As some 15 years ago (!!!!) at the "website-that-shall-not-be-named," we'll likely agree 95% of the time.... and disagree on some of TULIP... and I'll appreciate your intelligent, articulate posts and even more your approach and heart. Good to have you here at CH!



Josiah




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Good Day, Josiah

Thanks for the kind words and memories... Back at you 10 fold!

Here is really the crux of the question:

Is the phase " sins of the whole world " the same as "every single sinner in the whole world".

I say it is not, what say you?

Iron sharpens Iron my bother, and I trust you to sharpen me well... let the sparks fly

In Him,

Bill

 

[Lamb]

Good Day, Josiah

Thanks for the kind words and memories... Back at you 10 fold!

Here is really the crux of the question:

Is the phase " sins of the whole world " the same as "every single sinner in the whole world".

I say it is not, what say you?

Iron sharpens Iron my bother, and I trust you to sharpen me well... let the sparks fly

In Him,

Bill

What is the Whole World then if not all in it?

 

[bbas 64]

What is the Whole World then if not all in it?

Good Day, Lil

Great to see you again...

all the sin in it... every single sin, but not every single person.

If there are 10 sins in the world in total... and only 10 people in the world

Person 1-9 commits a single sin that numbered 1-9, but the 10th person commits all 10 sins, how may people does Jesus have to atone for the sins of the whole world?

Did Jesus pay the ransom to the Father, to turn away the just Wrath of God for every single person with out distinction?

Or every sin (in the whole world)... they are 2 very different things.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Lamb]

Good Day, Lil

Great to see you again...

all the sin in it... every single sin, but not every single person.

If there are 10 sins in the world in total... and only 10 people in the world

Person 1-9 commits a single sin that numbered 1-9, but the 10th person commits all 10 sins, how may people does Jesus have to atone for the sins of the whole world?

Did Jesus pay the ransom to the Father, to turn away the just Wrath of God for every single person with out distinction?

Or every sin (in the whole world)... they are 2 very different things.

In Him,

Bill

It's impossible for a person to be alive and not have sin. So all persons 1-10 have sinned and need forgiveness...all their sins, past, present and future. The sin of unbelief is rejection of that forgiveness and nothing is received because the person rejects Him.

 

[Josiah]

Good Day, Josiah

Thanks for the kind words and memories... Back at you 10 fold!

Here is really the crux of the question:

Is the phase " sins of the whole world " the same as "every single sinner in the whole world".

I say it is not, what say you?

Bill

I say yes. It says it's SINS so all sins are included, and since the Bible says,"for all have sinned" that includes all people since all are sinners.


Here's a very short video from Dr. Cooper, a chaplain at Cornell... a former Calvinist now Lutheran. It's more didactic than my approach but it may help

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